10.26.2021 - City Council MinutesCity of Clermont
MINUTES
REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING
October 26, 2021
CALL TO ORDER
The City Council met in a regular meeting on Tuesday, October 26, 2021 in the Clermont City Council
Chambers. Mayor Murry called the meeting to order at 6:30pm with the following Council Members
present: Council Members Pines, Entsuah, Bates, and Purvis.
Other City officials present were Acting City Manager Davidoff, City Attorney Mantzaris, and City Clerk
Howe.
INVOCATION AND PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
The invocation was given by Police Department Chaplin Michael Saxe followed by the Pledge of
Allegiance.
PROCLAMATIONS
National American Indian Heritage Month
Mayor Murry read into the record and presented Ms. Susan DeHart with a proclamation recognizing
November 2021 as National American Indian Heritage Month. Ms. DeHart thanked the Council on behalf
of the Daughters of the American Revolution and stated that the proclamation will be shared with their
members.
Statewide Mobility Week
Mayor Murry recognized Statewide Mobility Week which will occur from October 29 — November 5,
2021.
OPENING COMMENTS
Prior to public comments, Acting City Manager Davidoff informed the Council that there were changes to
the agenda.
Item No. 8 — Ordinance No. 2021-024 FINAL — The VUE CPA
AN ORDINANCE OF THE CITY OF CLERMONT, LAKE COUNTY, FLORIDA,
ADOPTING THE SMALL-SCALE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT FOR
THE CITY OF CLERMONT, FLORIDA, PURSUANT TO THE LOCAL
GOVERNMENT COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING ACT, CHAPTER 163, PART II,
FLORIDA STATUTES; SETTING FORTH THE AUTHORITY FOR ADOPTION OF
THE SMALL-SCALE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT; SETTING FORTH
THE PURPOSE AND INTENT OF THE SMALL-SCALE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN
AMENDMENT; PROVIDING FOR THE ADOPTION OF THE SMALL-SCALE
COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT; ESTABLISHING THE LEGAL STATUS
OF THE SMALL-SCALE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT; PROVIDING
FOR CONFLICT, SEVERABILITY, ADMINISTRATIVE CORRECTION OF
SCRIVENERS ERROR, PUBLICATION AND EFFECTIVE DATE.
City Clerk Howe read the ordinance into the record by legal title only.
MOTION TO TABLE the final consideration of Ordinance No. 2021-024 until the meeting of
November 9 2021 made by Council Member Bates. Seconded by Council Member Purvis. Passed
unanimously with all members present voicimp, aye.
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City of Clermont
MINUTES
REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING
October 26, 2021
Item No. 9 — Ordinance No. 2021-025 FINAL — The VUE Rezonin
AN ORDINANCE UNDER THE CODE OF ORDINANCES OF THE CITY OF
CLERMONT, LAKE COUNTY, FLORIDA AMENDING THE OFFICIAL ZONING
MAP OF THE CITY OF CLERMONT REFERRED TO IN CHAPTER 122 OF
ORDINANCE NO. 289-C, CODE OF ORDINANCES; REZONING THE REAL
PROPERTIES DESCRIBED HEREIN AS SHOWN BELOW; PROVIDING FOR
CONFLICT, SEVERABILITY, ADMINISTRATIVE CORRECTION OF SCRIVENERS
ERROR, RECORDING, AN EFFECTIVE DATE AND PUBLICATION.
City Clerk Howe read the ordinance into the record by legal title only.
MOTION TO TABLE the final consideration of Ordinance No. 2021-025 until the meetilig of
November 9 2021 made by Council Member Bates. Seconded by Council Member Purvis. Passed
unanimously with all members present voicing aye.
Acting City Manager Davidoff informed the Council that there were no additional changes to the agenda.
PUBLIC COMMENTS
Les Allier, 3436 Mossy Leaf Lane — Informed the Council that he will be hosting a toy drive at Corelli's
downtown on December 4 despite being denied a permit from the City. Mr. Allier claimed the city code
allows him to have this event. He is not asking permission, he is informing the Council. The event will start
at 2:00 PM.
Mayor Murry expressed concern with that date as the parade is that day.
Acting City Manager Davidoff informed the Council that Parks and Recreation has been in touch with
Corelli's. He also informed the Council that special events require a 60 days advance notice. He can follow-
up with the applicant tomorrow.
Mr. Allier informed the Council that the event will happen with or without their approval.
Mayor Murry told Mr. Allier that he will need to get with staff and go over the details.
Sharon Keys, 644 West Osceola Street — Representing South Lake Alliance. Asked the city to consider sole
ownership of the project or partner with Lake County to bring the Champions Corner Community Center
to fruition. Ms. Keys requested a January 2022 Workshop to continue the discussion.
Dani Page, Tuscany Ridge — Spoke in support of Corelli's toy drive.
Billie Wartenberg, 1000 Sadie Ridge Road — Requested that the City have a skate park.
Council Member Purvis stated that a former Council brought up the idea of a skate park, but was afraid of
the liability risk. City Attorney Mantzaris informed the Council that since that prior conversation, the State
Legislature has provided for protective liability and there is some protection to reduce the city's liability
risk.
Council Member Purvis asked staff to review and report back to the Council in January.
James Hobby, 1047 Princeton Drive — Spoke in support of a skate park. Mr. Hobby has a Change.org
petition signed with 1,500 signatures in support of a skate park in the community. He reviewed the benefits
of a skate park for the community.
Andrew Wilkens, 15921 Bay Vista Drive, Clermont — Spoke in support of a skate park. Mr. Wilkens is a
skate shop owner.
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City of Clermont
MINUTES
REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING
October 26, 2021
Corbin Wartenberg, 1000 Sadie Ridge Road — Spoke in support of a skate park. He read some comments
aloud from others wanting a skate park.
Charlene Forth, 393 W. Desoto Street, Clermont — Spoke in support of a skate park; Spoke in opposition to
the police department and stated that residents are not getting served properly and are losing faith in the
Police Department.
REPORTS
Lake County Chairman Sean Parks
Sean Parks, District 2 Representative —
• Provided an update on Hancock Road. County staff have completed the analysis and evaluation.
They have two (2) preferred options for widening Hancock Road. The first option costs $39 million;
the second option costs $25.5 million. The first option requires additional purchases of land for
expanded right of way and wider lanes; the second option utilizes existing right-of-way and has
narrower right-of-way and lanes. This is a good thing because it has gone from a thought to an
actionable plan. It all comes down to funding.
• Provided an update on Lakeshore Drive. The County will be doing work on that stretch from the
Lake Susan bridge to the city line. They will be adding roundabouts and splinters. The DOT will
have more money available through the complete streets program.
• CR455 is expediting a plan to implement safety bike lanes on both sides.
• With regards to growth management, Mr. Parks is looking forward to working together with the
municipalities to conduct regional planning.
• Announced upcoming events in the County including the Commissioner Cup softball tournament.
• The County is also observing mobility week.
• Provided updates on Schofield Road and the Turnpike.
• The CR455 Bridge will be closed for about a year while the bridge is reconstructed.
Council Member Purvis asked if there is an opportunity to access additional funding for Hancock Road
from the funds the County is seeking for Lakeshore Drive. Commissioner Parks stated that they are looking
at any and all options for funding.
Council Member Purvis informed the Council that he may request that the City jointly fund the construction
of Hancock Road with the County sometime in the future.
Council Member Entsuah asked about coverings at bus stops and who does the maintenance. Commissioner
Parks stated that it is a partnership with the municipality.
Council Member Entsuah asked about the East Central Florida Planning Council. Acting City Manager
Davidoff stated that they would be making a presentation at the December meeting.
INTERIM CITY MANAGER REPORT
Acting City Manager Davidoff
Congratulated Council Member Entsuah for his appointment to the Council on Community Service.
Informed the Council that the City had applied for a grant with Niagara Bottling. As a finalist, the
City had to do a publicity campaign and get votes in the community. Clermont ended up 1,200
votes short and came in 2°d place which is an amazing accomplishment. However, there were
enough funds available that the foundation awarded the City a $90,000 grant to build a community
garden at the ARC.
There are plaques recognizing elected officials and former City Managers in the lobby.
City of Clermont
MINUTES
REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING
October 26, 2021
• There will be a CRA meeting Nov. 9 at 6:OOpm with the regular meeting at 6:30pm.
• Informed the Council that staff is bringing back a design for the parking garage.
With regards to the parking garage, Assistant Public Works Director Jim Maiworm presented a PowerPoint
presentation to the Council.
Chris Raider, 4852 Lake Lilly Drive, Edgewood — City Consultant. Reviewed the options for the parking
garage and the enhancement options available. The total estimated cost could be up to $15.950 million at
this time for construction.
Mr. Maiworm informed the Council that staff was seeking direction on the following options:
1. Accept the concepts and revisit at a future date.
2. Select a presented option and pursue.
3. Develop a funding plan for any option selected.
4. Hold off on development until funding is determined.
Mayor Murry felt that it would be most appropriate to seek funding options before continuing with
development.
Council Member Purvis thanked staff for bringing this item back to the Council. He liked the first option
and allows for future expansion. It is also the cheapest option.
Mayor Murry stated he would like to see this on the January workshop agenda. In the interim, staff should
work to identify funding sources.
Council Member Purvis asked Finance to review the bond market and see what rates the City can borrow
at. He would like that information presented at the January workshop.
Council Member Bates asked if there were any realized value to having the solar panels installed. Mr.
Raider said that he is aware of another project where the solar panels are being used to power an adjoining
City Hall.
Council Member Entsuah asked if there were grants available. Acting City Manager Davidoff stated that
staff would be investigating all available funding options.
CITY ATTORNEY REPORT
City Attorney Mantzaris — No Report
CITY COUNCIL REPORT
Council Member Bates —
• Congratulated Council Member Entsuah on his appointment.
• Pig on the Pond was a success.
• Thanked City Clerk's office for plaques in City Hall lobby.
Council Member Purvis —
• Did not attend Pig on the Pond, but received good reports and commended staff.
Council Member Entsuah — No report.
Council Member Pines —
• Congratulated Council Member Entsuah on appointment to Community Service Board.
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City of Clermont
MINUTES
REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING
October 26, 2021
Mayor Murry —
• Congratulated Council Member Entsuah on his appointment.
• Attended Pig on the Pond. It was an outstanding event and well attended.
• Attended the Special Olympics 5K Torch Run with the Police Department at the National
Training Center.
• Reminded the public that Lunch with the Mayor in November will be at the Jeff's Coffee Shop.
• Commented that the medians at US27 and SR50 looks horrible and asked if there were anything
the City can do as those are county roads.
• Roads are looking bad.
In regards to the state of the roads, Acting City Manager Davidoff informed the Council that Public Services
is working on getting that information. The agreements are tied into other cities as well. Staff will have to
bring back.
Council Member Purvis added that there are multiple street lights out on SR50 and US27. Acting City
Manager Davidoff stated that staff will review the issue and report back to the Council.
CONSENT AGENDA
Mayor Murry advised the next item on the Agenda for consideration was the Consent Agenda and requested
anyone wishing to have any item pulled for discussion to please come forward at this time.
Item No. 1— Minutes Approval
Item No. 2 — Surplus Request
Item No. 3 — Resolution No. 2021-048R
Item No. 4 — Piggyback Purchase and Budget
Amendment
Item No. 5 — Building Inspection and Plans
Review Services Contract Award
Item No. 6 — Pole Facility Use Agreement
Item No. 7 — Solid Waste and Recycling Master
Plan Study Task Order and Budget Amendment
Consider approval of the September 28, 2021
Council meeting minutes.
Consider approval to declare end of life inventory
as surplus from the Police, Finance, and Parks &
Recreation Departments and dispose of in
accordance with the Purchasing Policy.
Consider Fiscal Year 2021 Budget Amendment.
Consider request to piggyback purchase from Lake
County contract with Ten-8 to purchase a pumper
apparatus in the total amount of $628,786 and a
budget amendment in the amount of $3,786 in the
Infrastructure Fund.
Consider awarding term contract to nine (9) firms
for commercial and residential building inspection
and plans review services.
Consider agreement between the City and the
Clermont Downtown Partnership.
Consider task order approval from Wright -Pierce,
Inc. in the total amount of $166,550 and budget
amendment for the same.
A member of the public requested that Item No. 6 be pulled for further consideration.
City of Clermont
MINUTES
REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING
October 26, 2021
MOTION TO APPROVE the consent agenda items 1 throu Th 5 and 7 for October 26 2021 made
by Council Member Bates. Seconded by Council Member Purvis. Passed unanimously with all
members present voicing ave.
Mayor Murry opened the floor for comments from the public on Agenda Item 6
Dani Page, Tuscany Ridge, Clermont — Opposed the adoption of the agreement.
Seeing no further comments, the floor was closed.
Council Member Purvis asked if someone applies to put banners that are not a member of the Clermont
Downtown Partnership (CDP) who they would apply to. City Attorney Mantzaris informed the Council that
there are two (2) entities within this agreement: The City and the CDP. The City has ultimate control of the
agreement and then can terminate at any time. The CDP will inform the City what banners they are seeking
to put up, and the City will need to acquiesce to those banners. However, the City will not be involved in
the banner selection process.
Council Member Purvis stated he would like to see a sunset to the agreement. City Attorney Mantzaris
stated that there is no sunset provision in the agreement as the city can terminate at its discretion.
MOTION TO APPROVE the banner a eement with the Clermont Downtown Partnership with
it coming back for review annually by the City Council made by Council Member Purvis: Seconded
by Council Member Bates. Passed unanimously with all members present voicing ave.
UNFINISHED BUSINESS
Item No. 8 — Ordinance No. 2021-024 FINAL — The VUE CPA
Item No. 8 was addressed earlier in the meeting and was tabled until November 9, 2021.
Item No. 9 — Ordinance No. 2021-025 FINAL — The VUE Rezoning
Item No. 9 was addressed earlier in the meeting and was tabled until November 9, 2021.
Item No. 10 — Ordinance No. 2021-028 FINAL — International Property Maintenance Codes
AN ORDINANCE OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF CLERMONT, LAKE
COUNTY, FLORIDA, AMENDING THE CODE OF ORDINANCES CHAPTER 14,
"BUILDINGS AND BUILDING REGULATIONS", ARTICLE I, "IN GENERAL" BY
CREATING SECTION 14-9 "INTERNATIONAL PROPERTY MAINTENANCE CODE";
PROVIDING FOR CONFLICT, SEVERABILITY, CODIFICATION, THE
ADMINISTRATIVE CORRECTION OF SCRIVENERS ERROR, PUBLICATION AND
AN EFFECTIVE DATE.
City Clerk Howe read the ordinance into the record by legal title only. Development Services Director Curt
Henschel provided the staff presentation.
Director Henschel informed the Council that this is a staff initiated text amendment to the Clermont Codes,
Chapter 14 - The International Property Maintenance Codes.
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City of Clermont
MINUTES
REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING
October 26, 2021
The intent and purpose of the hnternational Property Maintenance Code is to protect public health, safety,
morals and welfare by establishing minimum requirements governing the maintenance, appearance and
condition of residential, rental, housing, commercial, business and industrial premises to establish minimum
requirements for governing utilities and other physical components and conditions essential to make the
previously mentioned facilities fit for occupancy and use. The adoption of the code requires all buildings to
provide structural strength, stability, sanitation, adequate light, ventilation, and life safety conditions from fire,
nuisances, and other hazards to conserve and maintain the viable stock to basic standards essential for
occupancy. General and technical amendments to the Florida Building Codes may require text updates and
changes to the International Property Maintenance Codes.
The City's last update to the property maintenance code was adopted on May 26, 2009. The current amendment
will provide compliance with the latest updates for the adoption of the 2021 International Property Maintenance
Codes. Staff is recommending approval of Ordinance No. 2021-028.
Mayor Murry opened the public hearing; seeing no one come forth, the floor was closed.
MOTION TO APPROVE and adopt Ordinance No. 2021-028 made by Council Member Bates•
seconded by Council Member Pines. Passed 5-0 on a roll call vote with all members pLesent voting
Item No. 11— Ordinance No. 2021-030 FINAL — Prince Edward Ave Rezoning
AN ORDINANCE UNDER THE CODE OF ORDINANCES OF THE CITY OF
CLERMONT, LAKE COUNTY, FLORIDA AMENDING THE OFFICIAL ZONING
MAP OF THE CITY OF CLERMONT REFERRED TO IN CHAPTER 122 OF
ORDINANCE NO. 289-C, CODE OF ORDINANCES; REZONING THE REAL
PROPERTIES DESCRIBED HEREIN AS SHOWN BELOW; PROVIDING FOR
CONFLICT, SEVERABILITY, ADMINISTRATIVE CORRECTION OF SCRIVENERS
ERROR, PUBLICATION AND EFFECTIVE DATE.
City Clerk Howe read the ordinance into the record by legal title only. Development Services Director Curt
Henschel provided the staff presentation
The applicant is requesting a rezoning from "R-1" - Single Family Medium Density Residential District to
"R-2"- Medium Density Residential for a vacant parcel located on the corner of Prince Edward Avenue and
East Minneola Avenue. The parcel is approximately 0.42 +/- acres with a Future Land Use Designation of
Medium Density Residential.
The applicant has requested the rezoning to R-2 Medium Density Residential to allow for a lot split, creating
two (2) 75-foot wide lots for construction of two new single-family homes. The current lot dimensions are
150-foot width x 122-foot depth. The minimum development standards requirements for a single-family
lot in the R-2 zoning district, Section 122-145, requires a lot width of 75-feet and a minimum lot area of
7,500 square feet. The adjacent parcel that is located to the north of the property is zoned R-2 Medium
Density Residential. Because the surrounding parcels of land have been developed, this vacant parcel is
considered as infill development. The Clermont Comprehensive Plan encourages and promotes infill
development to increase the quality of life and property values in existing residential neighborhoods. Any
future development of the lots will require compliance with the Land Development Regulations and
building and fire safety codes before the issuance of a building permit.
City of Clermont
MINUTES
REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING
October 26, 2021
The proposed R-2 Medium Density Residential zoning will be consistent and compatible with the existing
residential neighborhoods. The rezoning request is not in conflict with the Comprehensive Plan goals,
objectives and policies for residential land use.
Staff has reviewed the application and provisions of the land development codes to ensure compliance with
the review criteria. Therefore, staff recommends approval of the rezoning request from "R-l" Single
Family Medium Density Residential to "R-2" Medium Density Residential District.
Mayor Murry asked if the applicant was present.
Terry Pitt, 944 51 Street, Clermont — Applicant Representative. Mr. Pitt was present to speak on behalf of
the applicant and is available for any questions.
Mayor Murry opened the floor for comments from the public; seeing none, the floor was again closed.
Mayor Murry expressed concern with the home size. Mr. Pitt responded that the driveway will not be close
to the intersection and is in the interior of the two lots.
MOTION TO APPROVE and adopt Ordinance No. 2021-030 rezoning the property made b
Council Member Bates: Seconded by Council Member Pines. Passed 5-0 on a roll call vote with
all members present voting ave.
NEW BUSINESS
Closed Session
Mayor Murry read the following statement into the record:
AT THIS TIME THE SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING WILL BE IN RECESS FOR THE
COUNCIL TO CONDUCT A PRIVATE PENDING LITIGATION SESSION AS REQUESTED BY THE
CITY ATTORNEY AND AS AUTHORIZED BY SECTION 286.011, FLORIDA STATUTES.
THE SESSION IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCUSSING SETTLEMENT AND EXPENSE
STRATEGY FOR PENDING LITIGATION INVOLVING THE CITY AND STEPHEN SPRINKLES AS
WELL AS DISCUSSING SETTLEMENT AND EXPENSE STRATEGY FOR PENDING LITIGATION
INVOLVING THE CITY, THE ART DISTRICT, LLC AND VP DEVELOPMENT, LLC.
THE CITY COUNCIL, THE CITY MANAGER, THE CITY ATTORNEY, AND THE CITY' S
LITIGATION LEGAL COUNSEL HANDLING EACH MATTER WILL ATTEND THE SESSION.
A COURT REPORTER WILL BE PRESENT AT THE SESSION AND A TRANSCRIPT WILL BE
AVAILABLE AFTER THE CONCLUSION OF THE LITIGATION.
THE MEETING WILL LAST APPROXIMATELY 60 MINUTES AND THE SPECIAL COUNCIL
MEETING WILL RESUME THEREAFTER AT 9:04 P.M. FOLLOWED BY THE REGULAR
COUNCIL MEETING.
The Meeting Recessed at 8: 04pm
AT THIS TIME THE REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING WAS IN RECESS SO THE COUNCIL COULD
MEET IN A CLOSED LITIGATION SESSION.
The Meeting Resumed at 9: 54pm
E.
City of Clermont
MINUTES
REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING
October 26, 2021
ADJOURN: With no further comments, this meeting adjourned at 9:55 pm.
APPROVED:
i
Tim Murry, Nhyor
-Jat'c-�-
Tracy Ackroyd Howe, City Clerk
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Page 1
CLOSED LITIGATION SESSION
RE: VP DEVELOPMENT
IN ATTENDANCE: TIMOTHY BATES, SEAT 1
JIM PURVIS, SEAT 2
EBO ENTSUAH, SEAT 4
MICHELE PINES, SEAT 5
TIM MURRY, MAYOR
DANIEL F. MANTZARIS, CITY ATTORNEY
SCOTT DAVIDOFF, ACTING CITY MANAGER
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DATE TAKEN:
OCTOBER 26, 2021
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TIME:
8:11 P.M. UNTIL 9:01 P.M.
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LOCATION:
CITY OF CLERMONT
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685 W. MONTROSE STREET, 1ST FLOOR
PLANNING CONFERENCE ROOM
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CLERMONT, FLORIDA 34712
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REPORTED BY:
DIANE C. ROBERTS
FLORIDA PROFESSIONAL REPORTER
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
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3 MR. MANTZARIS: Well, thank you, everybody, for
4 being patient, as we get set up.
5 Again, this is one of the few times that the
6 City Council can meet in closed session regarding
7 the pending litigation and possible settlement and
8 litigation expense.
9 So, obviously, we want to talk about the two
10 items, today. We're going to do the two items
11 separately. The first item we're going to do is
12 the -- we'll talk about The Art District, VP
13 Development, City of Clermont case. Then, we'll
14 just take a real quick break, so that Diane, the
15 court reporter, can make sure that we're moving into
16 the second item. At that point, Mr. Neal will
17 probably -- he'll leave, because he won't be here to
18 talk about -- he's not involved in the Sprinkles
19 case.
20 So, you'll notice that Doug Noah is sitting
21 here. And Doug Noah is with Dean, Ringers,
22 Morgan & -- Lawton? Dean, Ringers, Morgan &
23 Lawton?
24 MR. NOAH: You got it exactly right.
25 MR. MANTZARIS: I got it right? Okay. And,
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obviously, they have been the City's long-term
insurance defense counsel through the League of
Cities, Florida Municipal Investment Trust,
insurance trust. So, he's here because of the
recent amended Complaint that was filed again by
VP Development -- the Second Amended Complaint that
was filed by VP Development against the City of
Clermont. As you know, prior to that, the City was
involved in -- only involved in that matter by
virtue of the Third -Party Complaint that had been
filed by The Art District against the City.
So, with that being said, what we'd like to do
today is give you a little status and update on
where we are with regard to the settlement
discussions and then talk to you a little bit more
about that -- that Second Amended Complaint and how
that plays into it. Part of the reason why Doug is
here now is because the -- there is some insurance
coverage that's available through the -- through the
League of Cities. We have not received a final
coverage determination letter from the League as of
yet. They've been looking at it for the last few
days. We have talked to the claims representative,
the claims adjuster. They have obviously assigned
it to Dean, Ringers, and to Doug. So, they are
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providing -- at least, initially -- the coverage on
the Defense side related to that Second Amended
Complaint.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: So, just so that I'm
clear, Dan, I think that we have, what, a $300,000
deductible, or whatever, for League of Cities. But,
League of Cities still starts from day one, as far
as Defense?
MR. MANTZARIS: Well, there's -- we -- on this
claim, based on the City's policy, we understand
that there is a zero deductible for it.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Oh, okay.
MR. MANTZARIS: But, there may -- there's an
inverse condemnation count in here, and the City has
an inverse condemnation endorsement or rider on its
policy that has a $300,000 limit on it.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Okay. Got it.
MR. MANTZARIS: That, I believe has a $5,000
deductible on it. But, I'm not exactly sure about
it. Nadine Ohlinger and I were trying to confirm
that this afternoon. But, we believe -- I think the
assignment that Doug has right now carries a zero
deductible for the City.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Okay.
MR. MANTZARIS: So, what we want to do, again,
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1 is bring you up to speed on where we were last time.
2 So, this is the third closed litigation session
3 we've had on this. We started out, initially -- as
4 you all know, with regard to settlement
5 negotiations, the original demand that we received
6 from VP Development was $190,000. We -- the City --
7 after that discussion, as you recall, the City
8 Council authorized us to go back and offer $125,000
9 back to the -- back to VP Development to try to get
10 the entire litigation resolved, to try to get the
11 Third -Party Complaint resolved and the potential
12 claims that VP Development had against the City. To
13 get all of that resolved, so that the City basically
14 could buy peace in all of this ongoing litigation.
15 We extended the $125,000 offer. We did not get
16 a response from that offer until yesterday -- late
17 yesterday afternoon, where we received a response
18 back saying that -- basically, rejecting the
19 $125,000 and demanding, again, $150,000 from the
20 City to resolve it. That was from VP Development,
21 to resolve all the issues.
22 When our office extended the $125,000 to the
23 attorney for VP Development, we extended it based
24 on the discussion we had at the last closed session.
25 It was offering $125,000, complete resolution of
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Page 7
1 the ongoing matters, a dismissal -- a dismissal with
2 prejudice of the pending lawsuit that VP Development
3 has against The Art District, which is what
4 resulted in the Third -Party Complaint, and also an
5 indemnification claim from VP Development back to
6 the City for anything that might come out of the
7 Art District litigation against the City. They --
8 their response that we received last night was
9 $150,000, pretty much all those items, except no
10 indemnification back from -- from the City -- from
11 VP Development, back to the City, or related to
12 that.
13 So, that's where we are in the settlement
14 discussions on it. They basically rejected the 125
15 that we went back on. With that, I'd like Tom to
16 talk -- before we can have further discussion on it,
17 I'd like Tom to talk about the issues in the Second
18 Amended Complaint, the one that was presented to you
19 at the Council meeting. And, frankly, I apologize
20 for not giving it to you. I hadn't even seen it, at
21 that point. That Complaint was filed two weeks ago
22 at about 4:30 in the afternoon. So, when it was --
23 when the citizen presented it to you, I hadn't even
24 seen it. I pulled it up that night on my computer,
25 off the clerk's website. So, we hadn't -- we hadn't
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1 even seen it yet. But, we got it over to Tom and we
2 looked at it.
3 So -- and just -- I will speak for him. I know
4 you're going to be interested in knowing what Doug
5 says. But, give him a break. He basically knows
6 very little about this, at this point. He's a
7 brilliant guy and a great lawyer, but he's basically
8 been -- gosh, he just got involved in this probably
9 this morning, when him and I spoke a little bit
10 about it.
11 MR. NOAH: Right.
12 MR. MANTZARIS: So, I'll turn it over to Tom,
13 to talk about it.
14 MR. NEAL: Right. Just a couple points of
i
15 clarification. When we sent the -- the offer, as
16 you -- or the counteroffer at the 125, with the
17 indemnification, we got no response except the
18 Motion for Leave to Amend. Now, the Motion for
19 Leave to Amend has not been granted, yet. They --
20 it's a technicality, really. They filed a Motion
21 for Leave to Amend and they attached their Second
22 Amended Complaint. It's a sworn Complaint signed by
23 Mr. Bianchi, laying out allegations. The Court's
24 going to grant it, because they have the right.
25 It's -- it's something that they're going to get.
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1 But, they haven't officially had the order entered,
2 and so we don't have a responsive due date.
3 So, that was the response I got back, or we got
4 back. I e-mailed Mr. Van Voorhees, and I said, is
5 this our response, you're suing the City? And he
6 goes, well, my client hasn't authorized me to make
7 any monetary -- he didn't say it in those words, but
8 that my client hasn't authorized anything else. And
9 then, yesterday, we received the -- our Settlement
10 Agreement, revised, and they're asking for $150,000.
11 And as Mr. Mantzaris said, they removed the
12 indemnification that we had put in there, because we
13 wanted to put to bed all the litigation, so we
14 didn't pay the money to VP and still were left with
15 the litigation with regard to The Art District.
16 So, the Second Amended Complaint that is going
17 to be active against us soon, they've -- now,
18 "they," being VP, have sued -- or are going to sue
19 the City, in Count I, for declaratory relief action
20 against the City and against the Art District;
21 Count II, a claim for negligent misrepresentation
22 against the City; Count III, against the City for
23 equitable estoppel; Count IV, for inverse
24 condemnation; and Count V, for breach of a
25 third -party beneficiary contract. And they're
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1 claiming that they -- they, VP -- are the
2 beneficiary of that temporary license use agreement.
3 That, somehow that gave them rights across that back
4 northern parcel.
5 They've -- they've changed their tact. They --
6 now, instead of suing mainly The Art District, and
7 then The Art District suing us, now they're suing
8 the City. However, one basic aspect of the lawsuit
9 has remained and they're still making a claim that
10 they have a right to an easement across that north
11 parcel.
12 So, as soon as we got it, we looked at the case
13 law. We feel that the case law is very, very
14 favorable to the City, in this. And there's just
15 virtually no case that allows a party to win on an
16 allegation that someone on the City staff said,
17 we'll do "X" for you, or we'll do "Y" for you.
18 Because, the law is so clear that you cannot rely on
19 that, because you know that that person does not
20 have the ability to deliver that. Only the City
21 Council, with a proper vote, can deliver.
22 And, so, there are -- we pulled 10 cases that
23 are, we think, very close on point. And in many of
�I
24 these cases, these type of allegations are thrown
25 out or dismissed on a Motion to Dismiss. That's
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before you can even get to a Motion for Summary
Judgment. So, we've started to put together a
Motion to Dismiss that shoots down this -- and on a
Motion to Dismiss, what the case law says is, you
can only look within the four corners of the
document. So, whatever allegations they've made,
that's all the Court can look at. You can't bring
in outside testimony or evidence and say, Judge,
they can't win on this because we have this
evidence. That's a Motion for Summary Judgment.
But, the allegations they've made is that they
relied on the site plan that was approved. And
there's cases that say you can't do that, because
the site plan doesn't give you those rights. And
we've relied on representations made by members of
the City. And the case law says you can't do that.
Because, what you have to do is, you have to rely on
good -- in good faith. And it's not good faith to
say, Joe Smith told me this, when you know, and
everybody knows, that Joe Smith has no authority to
deliver that. Only the City, through its council,
and a vote, can do it.
So, we feel -- we feel stronger with the
allegations they've made now, than the allegations
they had before. Before, as you recall, they were
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1 claiming that they had some easement across the
2 property that was granted to them by these
3 representations. And -- and they've changed that,
4 but we feel strong with the case law we have.
5 And, so, that's where we are on those
6 pleadings. And the next step -- depending on what
7 happens with the insurance coverage, the next step
8 would be to file a Motion to Dismiss.
9 MR. MANTZARIS: So, we wanted -- again, I think
10 the key point is, our job, as city attorney and
11 defense counsel, is to provide you with the legal
12 analysis related to that. We -- we feel confident,
13 as Tom pointed out, that the current allegations
14 that are being presented against the City are
15 strongly -- the facts and the case law is strongly
16 in favor of the City, from a legal perspective. And
17 that's our role, is to talk to you about that and to
18 provide that -- provide that to you.
19 Again, we are in settlement negotiations.
20 We've been in settlement negotiations from the
21 beginning. And the same issue concerns us about the
22 settlement negotiations as it has from the very
23 beginning, which is that we really were hoping -- we
24 wanted to work with the City Council, and with the
25 parties, so that the City could, as I said earlier,
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1 buy peace. We are not certain that, entering into a
2 resolution with -- we're pretty sure entering into a
3 resolution with VP Development, only, will not buy
4 the City peace in this litigation. Some litigation
5 will continue. We believe litigation will continue
6 in some way with regard to The Art District.
7 But, that's -- those are the legal discussions.
8 And we really -- I guess, at this point, we really
9 want to know how the Council wants to proceed. Our
10 recommendation is that we -- that we proceed with
11 the Motion to Dismiss that Tom is suggesting. That
12 will either be filed by our office or it be filed
13 by Doug's office, if they take over the defense of
14 that. We obviously would share all of the work
15 product we've done with Doug and his team.
16 But, that would be our recommendation on how to
17 proceed. We're here to talk to the Council, and
18 it's the Council's ultimate decision.
19 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: So, now we're going to
20 start to throw City staff under the bus, starting
21 with Darren Gray, who was one of the people who made
22 a promise.
23 COMMISSIONER BATES: How are we throwing
24 anybody under the bus?
25 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, Dan -- Dan just
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1 said, in his opening comments, that there were
2 mistakes made. Right?
3 COMMISSIONER BATES: Right.
4 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: And we all know, if you
5 read all the material -- in fact, I think you were
6 in that meeting, where Darren Gray made that
7 promise, we will get this done. Right? True?
8 COMMISSIONER BATES: That is true.
9 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Okay. So, you know, we
10 can fight this 'til -- 'til you bury me in Oakhill
11 Cemetery. But, the question is, are we going to pay
12 now or are we going to pay later? Because, we're
13 either going to pay now or we're going to pay a ton
14 of money in legal fees and still roll the dice. I'd
15 rather go to a Hard Rock Cafe, if I'm going to start
16 tossing dice.
I
17 MR. MANTZARIS: Well, just to be clear, we do
18 not -- we disagree with that, Mr. Purvis. We do not
19 think that the City, based on our reading of it, and
20 the current situation, that the City is going to --
21 has a great deal of exposure for a substantial
22 amount of money to be paid to VP Development, based
23 on the allegations and the facts and the cases that
24 Tom referred to.
25 So, we do not think it's a, pay me now or pay
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1 me a lot more later, with regard to VP Development.
2 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I asked the specific
3 question, I believe, of Tom, two meetings ago, what
4 was our potential legal expense exposure? And it
5 was a hefty number. I'm not going to speak for Tom.
6 Maybe he remembers what that number was.
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COMMISSIONER PINES: But, you're asking for
a -- we're considering asking for a Motion to
Dismiss based on 10 cases that you've researched
and found that it would be in the favor of the City.
So --
MR. NEAL: Yeah, there's quite a few. Because,
the case law is just -- it is so well established
that you cannot rely on someone making a statement
to you in good faith, that -- and what they're
claiming is a negligent misrepresentation. So, a
negligent misrepresentation simply means, well,
someone said something and they said it negligently.
They said they thought the City could deliver that,
or maybe they thought it would happen and it didn't
turn out that way.
But, the case law is abundantly clear, as a
property owner, you cannot rely on that, because
everybody knows that the City is not bound by what a
staff member says, a member of the Council. Until
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1 it's voted on, it's not binding. And, so --
2 COMMISSIONER PINES: I don't look at that as
3 throwing anybody under the bus. It's just legal
4 case law that states this.
5 MR. MANTZARIS: Well -- and I would just add
6 one more point, to follow up, Mr. Purvis. We did
7 talk to you about litigation expense.
8 MR. Purvis: Um -hum.
9 MR. MANTZARIS: However, the landscape has
10 changed considerably, recently. Because, Mr. Noah
11 is now here basically under the City's policy, so
12 the City is not paying for him to be here. So, the
13 litigation expense piece that was coming out of
14 pocket for the City has changed, based on the fact
15 that now there is insurance coverage that's
16 available for that.
17 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I had that same argument
18 with Wayne Weatherbee. Didn't work out too well in
19 the end.
20 MR. MANTZARIS: Well -- and, frankly, I'm not
21 sure how that -- how that's analogous to this.
22 Because, that was a long time ago.
23 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Here's the thing, Dan.
24 There's only five of us that have to sit up there
25 and explain to the taxpayers where the money went
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and why. You could have all the legal reasons in
the world and 10 cases to refer to. But, you're not
the one that has to face the public. We are. And
if we -- if we can't truly justify a fight in the
gutter, why would we even go there?
We have an opportunity to close the matter out.
We've had that opportunity. We all sat here, I
think, three meetings ago, and picked 150 as the
magic number. We've got 150 on the table as the
magic number. What is the dilemma, here?
COMMISSIONER PINES: That's not closing out the
matter, though. It's taking care of VP Enterprise,
possibly. We don't have a guarantee of that. It's
only taking care of one portion of it. And the
reason why we even brought it up --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Tom, do you have the
agreement from the last meeting, that I read? I
don't know if anybody else --
MR. NEAL: Well, there's never been an
agreement. There was an offer -- there's been
offers and demands.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: There was a settlement
offer.
MR. NEAL: There's never been an agreement
reached. But, there's been offers and counteroffers
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going back and forth.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I thought it said 150.
It's the one that Tom pulled out of his folder and
passed around. But, nobody picked it up, but me, to
read it.
MR. MANTZARIS: Yeah, that was the offer that
we got from VP Development.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: All right. And it
clearly said that it released the City of all
responsibility, in my words.
COMMISSIONER BATES: Well, that was my next
question. If we agree to pay that 150, what are we
getting for that 150?
COMMISSIONER PINES: Well, the premise -- the
original premise, when we countered, was that
everything else within the original lawsuit from Art
District would fall. Because, everything that we
agreed with and paid VP for would take care of the
entire matter.
COMMISSIONER BATES: Correct.
COMMISSIONER PINES: That's not what happened.
In the last meeting, they explained to us that Art
District came back stronger. So, it defeated the
purpose of our counter.
COMMISSIONER BATES: Our original. But, that's
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1 my question.
2 COMMISSIONER PINES: Yeah, of the 125.
3 COMMISSIONER BATES: If we paid that 150, what
4 are we basically stating and saying, at that point?
5 MR. NEAL: You mean, the 150 that's demanded
6 now?
7 COMMISSIONER BATES: Yes, sir.
8 MR. NEAL: Well, here's what they said. "Upon
9 receipt of payment, VP shall execute/deliver a
10 general release in favor of the City for all claims
11 related to this matter in the form attached hereto,
12 Exhibit A." They didn't attach it.
13 "Upon receipt of said payment, VP shall dismiss
14 with prejudice its Complaint in the litigation." I
15 guess he means Second Amended Complaint. I don't
16 think he read it very carefully before he sent it
17 out.
18 So, what -- what they're agreeing to do is
19 dismiss VP's claims against the City --
20 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Um -hum. Okay.
21 MR. NEAL: -- and agreeing to give a release.
22 But, it doesn't contemplate getting rid of any
23 claims that The Art District has made against the
24 City.
25 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: But, he has no control
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1 over The Art District.
2 MR. NEAL: Well, the only control he has is if
3 he agreed to indemnify us. And that's what we said.
4 If The Art District came after the City, give us
5 indemnification. And he took that out. That's the
6 difference, from what --
7 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Would you agree to that,
8 if you were offered the same deal? I know I
9 wouldn't.
10 MR. NEAL: Well, I mean, I'd have to know --
11 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I wouldn't.
12 MR. NEAL: That depends on -- I don't know.
13 That's a tough one to answer.
14 COMMISSIONER BATES: I'm inclined to agree with
15 that offer, on the premise that any litigation from
16 them is out the window. Just to put this to rest.
17 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: If The Art District wants
18 to make a move, we can't stop that. We'll just have
19 to deal with it when it happens. It's a separate
20 issue.
21 COMMISSIONER BATES: And I would anticipate
I
22 something --
23 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: It probably will.
24 Because, we all know the character of the person.
25 But, you know, I just don't think it's fair to join
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the two of them at the hip. It's two separate
issues.
MAYOR MURRY: Are you looking at me?
COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: You weren't the first to
talk. So, I would like --
MAYOR MURRY: No, I'm listening. I'm not too
in favor of just giving away taxpayer money. I
mean, time and time again, I come in here to every
one of these sessions and they're saying the City's
got a strong case. And now, I'm hearing tonight
it's even stronger. So, I have a harder time going
back and saying, hey, we just gave this guy money,
without any kind of fight, when we have a strong
case, from what I'm hearing.
I mean, that's what we pay you guys for, to
give us legal advice. And I'm intending to listen
to them, myself, and everything. I mean -- I
hate just giving away something without a fight.
Okay?
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I don't think we're
giving anything away.
MAYOR MURRY: That's what -- that's what --
that's what you're wanting me to say.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: We're negotiating
something in good faith.
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1 MAYOR MURRY: Well, you're negotiating
2 something in good faith, which he has no right to
3 really claim. I mean, any person in business --
4 Jim, I'm sorry. Any good business person would
5 know, you got to have things in writing, before
6 you -- you -- before you act upon it. And this guy
7 has been in business long enough to know that, word
8 of mouth isn't going to do it.
9 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: You're going to be amazed
10 at what he has in writing.
11 MAYOR MURRY: Yeah. Well --
12 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: You're not going to be
13 happy when those cards get played.
14 MR. MANTZARIS: Well, we would just -- Jim, we
15 would just --
16 MR. NEAL: It's attached to the Complaint.
17 MR. MANTZARIS: We've attached the stuff to the
18 Complaint. There's been -- how many depositions
19 taken in this case?
20 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Multiple.
21 MR. NEAL: Fifteen, 16.
22 MR. MANTZARIS: Fifteen, 16 depositions. And
23 our reading of the evidence, and the facts that have
24 j been presented, hasn't -- hasn't changed our
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25 opinion. But, you're right, this is -- this --
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1 it's -- it's a City Council decision, about how they
2 want to handle it and how they want to do it. The
3 only thing that we can continuously say, is,
4 unfortunately, we do not think you can consider each
5 of these cases in a vacuum. We do think that they
6 are joined at the hip. And they are -- and we are
7 confident that The Art District litigation will
8 continue at some expense. And -- the only way --
9 MR. NEAL: Well, their counsel has made that
10 clear.
11 MR. MANTZARIS: The only way -- the only way
12 that we could potentially resolve that, is if the
13 City were to make a similar offer to The Art
14 District, to pay them some funds for what they've
15 incurred, in their minds.
16 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: And what was --
17 COMMISSIONER PINES: And what was -- what was
18 their number? $450,000?
19 MR. MANTZARIS: No, it was less than that.
20 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: It was less than that.
21 I think it's around 100, wasn't it?
22 MR. MANTZARIS: Yeah. And they never made a
23 formal --
24 COMMISSIONER PINES: The Art District?
25 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: Um -hum.
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MR. NEAL: The 450 was for the building.
COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: The building, yeah.
COMMISSIONER PINES: Oh, okay.
COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: And then, when I think
about that, I'm, like, okay, 150 and 100. I'm like,
I feel like that's already saved us an amount that
we could have, you know, compared to the litigation.
MAYOR MURRY: The way I feel is, if we go back
and we give VP this 150, they're going to come back
and hit us with even more. Okay?
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: No, they can't.
MAYOR MURRY: Because, isn't it --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Once we cut them the 150
check --
MAYOR MURRY: Not VP, I'm talking about The Art
District.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, you said VP.
MAYOR MURRY: Well, if we give VP this, I'm
thinking The Art District is sitting there waiting
to see if we're just going to hand VP money. And if
that's the case, then we're going to go out here and
we're going to ask you for a whole ton of money, as
well. But, I'm going to need --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: That's a separate case.
MAYOR MURRY: I don't care -- I don't know how
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1 we were trying to tie both of them at the hip,
2 anyway. Because, they're both separate, and we have
3 to deal with them one-on-one. Okay?
4 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I agree.
5 MAYOR MURRY: I'm sorry. I hear what Council
6 is saying about -- about the evidence. And I
7 just -- I'm sorry, I'm willing to put up a fight.
8 However, I'm just one vote. And, so --
9 MR. NEAL: The legal theory is, if you can win
10 on the Motion to Dismiss, that it all may go away.
11 MAYOR MURRY: Right.
12 MR. NEAL: Because, once VP's claim is found
13 not to be a good claim against the City, then The
14 Art District doesn't have much reason to come after
15 us. Because, most of their claims are based on what
16 VP has claimed against them.
17 MAYOR MURRY: And if we turn around and we hand
18 VP all this money, I'm quite sure The Art District
19 is going to say, we're going to want ours.
20 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: You don't think he isn't
21 going to do it, anyway? I mean, consider the
22 person. I mean, really.
23 MAYOR MURRY: Well --
24 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Yeah. All I can say is,
25 I never came home from the casino with more money
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1 than I went with. Never. I'm not much of a
2 gambler, but I never came home with more money. I
3 try not to spend more money than I know I have.
4 MAYOR MURRY: I'm sorry, I know you walked away
5 with some of that money.
6 MR. MANTZARIS: And since we are focused on
7 litigation expense, I have to tell you that, based
8 on the current -- the current status of this matter,
9 it is likely that the City is not going to absorb
10 any more -- the City is not going to absorb any more
11 litigation expense associated with this case. Not a
12 lot. And today --
13 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: And if he should
14 prevail -- if -- big if -- if he should prevail,
15 does he not then have the right to collect his legal
16 fees, in addition to the sum of it? I think he
17 does.
18 MR. MANTZARIS: I'm not --
19 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: So, that's adds another
20 set of dice to the -- to the table.
21 MR. MANTZARIS: Possibly on the inverse
22 condemnation claim.
23 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I don't know.
24 MR. MANTZARIS: But, other than that, I don't
25 think he the right to --
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COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I mean, it's not just the
150, that we're looking at. We're looking at the
potential of a lot more money, if, God forbid, we
lose. And there's a 50/50 chance that we will.
MAYOR MURRY: Well, if there's a 50/50 chance
that we lose, there's a 50/50 chance that we win.
What if we win? What about our legal fees? Do they
pick up our legal fees?
MR. MANTZARIS: No, it doesn't work that way.
Unfortunately.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: It doesn't work that way.
MAYOR MURRY: But, I'm willing -- rather than
just handing the guy money, when I'm hearing legal
advice telling us we got a strong case and
everything --
MR. NEAL: Well, the way these cases usually
work, is, you put -- you test their case. You hold
their feet to the fire. You make them get past
the Motion to Dismiss. If they don't get past the
Motion to Dismiss, boy, then, they're -- they're
really in a bad spot. If they get past the Motion
to Dismiss, now their case may be a little stronger.
Then, if they get past the Motion for Summary
Judgment. Usually, you -- you test their theories.
At this point, they're making allegations. And
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1 we're telling you, we don't think these allegations
2 hold water, legally. And, usually, at that point,
3 money isn't offered. It's, like, let's test these
4 allegations and see what the Court says. That's the
5 way it usually happens in litigation. It usually
6 doesn't -- you usually don't agree to settle with
7 them so early on in the case, when their legal
8 theories haven't been tested. And that's why we've
9 said, we've done the research and we feel like you
10 have a strong position. Hold their feet to the
11 fire. Make them -- you know, show us that they have
12 a viable claim where we could potentially lose.
13 MAYOR MURRY: So, with that being said, if we
14 submit the Motion to Dismiss and if they get past
15 that, we could probably come back at that point, if
16 necessary.
17 MR. NEAL: Oh, you can settle at any time.
18 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: But, maybe not at 150.
19 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: Yeah, that number is not
20 going to be 150. Now, it's going be --
21 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Of course, not.
22 MR. MANTZARIS: But -- but, I don't know about
23 that. Because, remember this, there is a finite
24 amount of arguable damages in this case. Which,
25 i we've never had substantial --
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COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Correct.
MR. MANTZARIS: They -- their damages in their
demand letter -- in their latest demand, is based on
loss of rents, right? They've had occupancy rights
to that building for a long time. They currently
have a full certificate of occupancy to use that
building. So, in terms of the damages clock, the
damages clock has stopped ticking, because they have
access to it. So, really, the damages can't get any
more than they are now.
They're going to argue that we have a
half -a -million -dollars worth of damages and we're
willing to settle for $150,000. And that comes down
to an issue about whether that's -- whether that's
speculative or whether those are actually firm
damages that a Court would also decide if we ever
got to that point. So, I can't say for sure that,
if you were to -- if you -- if the City was not
successful in its Motion to Dismiss, I'm not sure --
we can't say for sure that you would have a larger
demand than $150,000.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I can see that. I
think -- I think the clock has stopped, you know? I
agree with that.
MR. MANTZARIS: Yeah.
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1 COMMISSIONER PINES: I don't --
2 MAYOR MURRY: And if there is 150, 195, we all
3 were sitting here in the first meeting trying to
4 figure out where he come up with the figures. How
5 he come up with it. And we asked for some
6 specifics, if he came back in and did not accept the
7 125. We haven't gotten those, yet.
8 MR. NEAL: We asked for it, and we got nothing,
9 substantiating it.
10 COMMISSIONER PINES: It's not going to hurt
11 anything for the Motion to Dismiss. To go for that.
12 It's not going to hurt, at all.
13 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: You know, if I was a
14 potential business person coming into Clermont, and
15 I knew some of the things that we all know about
16 this particular case, I would get in my car and
17 speed as fast as I could out of the City limits. I
18 wouldn't --
19 COMMISSIONER PINES: Everybody has a right to
20 do that.
21 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I would not deal with --
22 with -- with this. Because, it's so duplicitous.
23 The --
24 MAYOR MURRY: Well, you're right. And
25 hopefully we will make sure this doesn't happen
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1 again. That's what we're trying to prevent. Make
2 sure we don't have these kind of things happening.
3 COMMISSIONER PINES: That's exactly right.
4 COMMISSIONER BATES: If I felt like we were
5 totally not at fault, didn't do anything wrong, I
6 would tend to agree. But, I think we had a hand in
7 the issues --
8 COMMISSIONER PINES: But, we were just --
9 COMMISSIONER BATES: -- with this.
10 COMMISSIONER PINES: We --
11 COMMISSIONER BATES: And I just -- I don't feel
12 right not helping them out with something.
13 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: There's a moral aspect
14 to this. I know the Courts don't recognize moral,
15 yada, yada, yada. But, the reality of life is,
16 everybody at this table, I suspect, has a moral
17 compass. And, boy, that compass is spinning, right
18 now, big time. It doesn't bode well for the City,
19 let alone the perception.
20 COMMISSIONER BATES: Well, what do you want to
21 do?
22 COMMISSIONER PINES: There have been a lot of
23 things done on both sides.
24 COMMISSIONER BATES: Absolutely. There is
25 fault across the board.
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COMMISSIONER PINES: This City has tried --
for, what, a year and a half, our staff has spent
hundreds of hours working on this, trying to get
this resolved. And they have not been able to
resolve anything with either one of them, and that's
why we are here. It's not just one thing, or one
thing that was said, that was promised in a meeting,
or anything else. It's -- it's been --
COMMISSIONER BATES: Well, what I do know, is
that one of these two parties has come to the table
to try to work something out, multiple times.
Whereas, the other one had no interest, whatsoever.
It wasn't a lack of effort. I mean, it just wasn't
reciprocated on the other end.
COMMISSIONER PINES: But, mistakes were made.
I understand that. But, mistakes were made -- even
with the promise that he would have the easement
rights, mistakes were made along the way, as well,
in that regard.
COMMISSIONER BATES: Absolutely.
COMMISSIONER PINES: So, we can't be held
accountable for a mistake that somebody made that
created easement issues.
MR. NEAL: And there are -- there are
statements in the minutes, and so forth, that cut
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both ways. Because, what -- what VP attached to
their Second Amended Complaint, they attached
minutes from the November 13th, 2018, meeting. And
Mr. Bianchi was present. And the statement was made
on the record that -- first, there was a statement
about no impeded access to business owners, such as
the Animal League, their proposed sidewalk. And
then, the statement is made, there is an issue of
encroachment between an adjoining property owner,
Mr. Stringfield. The two parties have been in
dialog for potential access and easements.
So, at that time, in November, he knew -- he,
Mr. Bianchi, knew that he had a problem with
easement access. And for him to come in and say, it
was promised to me, when he was at a meeting and
participated in the discussion of the property being
sold. So, it looks like what happened is, he
thought he was going to be able to work it out after
the fact, after the property was sold. And then,
for whatever reason, these two people started
fighting, and now the answer is to blame the City.
Further, Mr. Bianchi, at that meeting, stated,
a utility easement was granted for the new wine bar.
He inquired if the easement will still be in place.
So, he knew about utility easements and so forth.
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1 City Attorney Mantzaris replied, the property will
2 be sold, subject to all existing easements. And
3 there was no easement for him to access across it
4 when it was sold.
5 So, he knew, back in November. And in these
6 minutes, what he said really hurt his own case, what
7 he attached to his Complaint. And -- and, so, what
8 they attached to the Complaint is part of the
9 Complaint for all purposes on a Motion to Dismiss.
10 So, when he makes the allegation that he relied
11 on these things, the Court can read this and say,
12 well, wait a minute, this man went to the meeting,
13 knew there were issues, knew he had to negotiate for
14 access across the property, and now he's saying the
15 City negligently told him he had it. He knew he had
16 a problem.
17 So, that's why we feel really -- part of the
18 reason we feel strongly about this Motion to Dismiss
19 is that there's good stuff to work with, put it that
20 way. There's good legal stuff to work with.
21 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: So, how do we deal with
22 the fact that, right until today, tonight, the City
23 has a formal written agreement with The Art District
24 that there would be a sidewalk, yada, yada, yada, in
25 our agreement with The Art District. And to this
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day, the City has still not done anything for the
sidewalk that's in our agreement with The Art
District.
I mean, guys, this is -- we're going to be the
laughing stock of the State Supreme Court.
COMMISSIONER BATES: What settlement are you
talking about? You lost me, there.
MR. MANTZARIS: Yeah. I don't know what --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: The Cost Share Agreement
between us and The Art District.
COMMISSIONER BATES: Where does that all come
in? I don't --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Parallel to Montrose
Street, in the back.
MR. MANTZARIS: Well, that was a Temporary
Access Agreement.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: No, it's still -- it
still shows as being installed on our agreement with
Jayson. And the City has never enforced it. And
now, the City sold the land to Jayson, so the City
has no control over that five feet.
MAYOR MURRY: Well, that's what I was going to
say. Is that the five feet that both of them was
supposed to be giving up -- VP was supposed to be
giving up and The Art District was supposed to be
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1 giving up for that sidewalk, which neither one of
2 them ended up giving up, so that's why you don't
3 have your sidewalk?
4 MR. MANTZARIS: Well, that was part and parcel.
5 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: But, we're in violation
6 of our own agreement with The Art District.
7 MAYOR MURRY: Well -- we -- we --
8 MR. NEAL: Is that the temporary access
9 agreement?
10 MR. MANTZARIS: No, he's talking about the Cost
11 Share Agreement. And You may be right, Mr. Purvis.
12 I don't remember that specifically. But, we can
13 certainly look at that.
14 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I've done a lot of
15 reading. Probably more than I ever wanted to. I
16 think we just need to fish and cut bait, tonight.
17 MR. MANTZARIS: Well, we can't make --
18 unfortunately, you can't make a decision --
19 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: We can have a consensus.
20 MR. MANTZARIS: That's what we're looking at.
21 And we'll move forward, based on how you want to do
22 it.
23 MAYOR MURRY: I still stand on submitting the
24 Motion to Dismiss, myself, is where I stand.
25 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, we haven't heard
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from Doug, who patiently has sat there sucking all
this up.
I really would like to hear any viewpoint that
you might have, Doug.
MR. NOAH: I'm not sure I've really formulated
any views on this case. I don't know enough, having
been introduced to it today, to know anything.
I will tell you that the -- the results of
the -- I don't know the cases that Tom has cited for
you. But, those results are completely consistent
with what I'm aware of. So, I can, for example,
forward you a case where a city manager tells
somebody, I'm hiring you, that had no authority
in -- in this particular town's ordinances, to be
able to do that, because hiring decisions were made
by the commission. And when that happened, the
commission terminated him, and there was no breach
of contract there.
Now, you raised, the two of you -- and I'm
sensitive to the fact, and it's an important
argument -- the morality. You don't want to lose
sight of morality, and things like that. But,
there's an important public purpose to be served,
there. And the public purpose is that cities tell
the public how they're going to transact business.
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They anticipate that their public is going to be
familiar with those rules and they're going to
comply with them. And, so, if they don't comply
with them, then they -- they do that at their own
risk.
So, there are public policy reasons that --
that underlie these cases. It's not like an, I
gotcha, there's no morality in our system. I mean,
almost every time you have two interests, each
person has legitimate interests, and this is one of
the interests that the City has.
So, that's -- that's about all I can add.
That's all I can add.
MR. MANTZARIS: Well, the one element I will
say -- and maybe Doug can help with this, because he
obviously deals with the League much more than me --
the one -- I'm certainly -- I do not know how the
recent involvement of Doug's firm and the League is
going to play out in this situation.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I understand.
MR. MANTZARIS: I don't know. Unfortunately, I
was hoping --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I spent 30 years in the
business, and I don't understand it.
MR. MANTZARIS: And I was hoping to get -- I
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1 don't know what it pays. Obviously, as an insurance
2 carrier, they will tell you, you're the insured, and
3 you have a right to settle any claim you want, based
4 on however you want to do that. That's pretty
5 typical. As long as you're not spending our money,
6 you have a right to do that. How that all plays
7 out, though, with regard to any other potential
8 litigation involving another party and whether that
9 harms the insurance company's interests with regard
i
10 to the future defense of any other particular
11 matter, I can't answer the question for you. In
12 other words, if you settle with VP Development, and
13 that raises further litigation with The Art
14 District, does that jeopardize any coverage you
15 potentially have without running it by the League,
16 at least, initially?
17 So, I would suggest, if we do move forward
18 tonight, and that's at the direction of the City, we
19 would try to vet those out before we bring this back
20 for a final -- you know, for any final action, to
21 make sure the City is in agreement with it.
22 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: All I want to see is a
23 full and final release of the City's future
24 exposure. It's my words, not well constructed.
25 MR. MANTZARIS: The other option -- to go back
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1 to my buy the peace issue, is to decide whether the
2 City Council wants to give us direction to reach out
3 to The Art District and see if there's a resolution
4 point with them that City would be willing to agree
5 to.
6 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: I would like to hear
7 that.
8 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: But, again, we all know
9 that you can't predict what tomorrow is going to
10 bring, with this man. He'll tell you anything today
11 and do a 180 on you tomorrow. You know? So, that's
12 why I want to keep these two separate. Because, if
13 we start to join them, we're never going to do
14 anything but keep going in a circle. Because,
15 that's exactly his game plan.
16 MAYOR MURRY: Well, I don't think we can join
17 them, first of all. I don't think they can be
18 joined. And, you're right, he may say one thing
19 today and something else tomorrow. We're doing the
20 same thing with VP. One thing today and tomorrow is
21 something different. So, that's the chance you're
22 going to take with either one of them.
23 But, like I said, I'd still rather sit here and
24 say, let's file a Motion to Dismiss and everything
25 and see where it goes from there. If we have to
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1
come back again and say, hey, go ahead and pay it,
2
that's good. But, I want to put up some type
of
3
fight, first, rather than just going out and
handing
4
people money, without even exploring all our
5
options.
6
COMMISSIONER PINES: I'm with the mayor.
7
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I am not. I guess
we're
8
starting to get to the consensus.
9
MR. MANTZARIS: Well, we're just trying
to get
10
to a consensus. It's important that you not
do
11
that. I mean, I can -- I'll -- just to keep
it from
12
having any issues, I can read the table. It
looks
13
like there's a consensus to bring this back to
the
14
City Council for a final approval at a public
15
hearing, at the $150,000 with a full release
from
16
VP Development.
17
COMMISSIONER PINES: Um -um. No.
18
COMMISSIONER BATES: Well, I don't know.
Is
19
there a --
20
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I mean --
21
COMMISSIONER PINES: Let's hear from all
five.
22
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: -- I was going to
look at
23
the two of you and say, is that right? But,
it's
24
one of those things.
25
MR. MANTZARIS: I'm sorry. I apologize.
I
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thought, earlier on in the discussions --
COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: It's one of those things
where, like, I wish I could kind of see where that
next step is. Because, you know, if we could file
that Motion to Dismiss and I knew 100 percent it was
all going to go away, I would be jumping on board
with it. But, just the fact that there is the
possibility that a judge says, no, you know? The
City wronged Patrick, you know? And --
COMMISSIONER PINES: Well, that's one step.
MR. NEAL: Well, let me -- let me clarify
something, there. Because, on a Motion to Dismiss,
we can't lose, we can only win. Because, if we
don't win on the Motion to Dismiss, all we have to
do then is respond to the Complaint. This is a
situation where we file the motion. If we win, the
case it's over, other than a potential appeal. If
we don't win -- we doesn't lose, we don't win --
then, the case goes to the next step. So, we don't
lose at a Motion to Dismiss, we just don't win.
COMMISSIONER PINES: Or we could determine, at
that point, that we want to negotiate. Because,
this is just -- this is, no harm, no foul. It's not
going to hurt us.
MAYOR MURRY: Yeah. And what I'm hearing, I
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1 guess, from Mr. Mantzaris, at this point, I don't
2 see it going no higher than $150,000. Because, they
3 say everything is pretty much --
4 MR. MANTZARIS: Well --
5 MAYOR MURRY: And I'm still trying to figure
6 out where he come up with the figure for the
7 $150,000.
8 MR. NEAL: Well, we haven't seen that. We've
9 asked for it. We've seen no breakdown to that 150,
10 that he just plucked from air.
11 COMMISSIONER BATES: That's discouraging to
12 hear, too. I thought that that was provided, but
13 obviously not.
14 MR. NEAL: We -- I mean, I haven't seen any --
15 any sort of backup for that.
16 MAYOR MURRY: Well, we asked for them. But, I
17 think you -all haven't provided them to us yet, on
18 the specifics of where you're coming up with that
19 kind of money. So --
20 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, where did we come
21 up with the $100,000, or whatever it was?
22 MR. MANTZARIS: 125.
23 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: 125?
24 MAYOR MURRY: Well, because he came to us with
25 $195,000, and we said, no. So, we -- we negotiated
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1
it, to say 125.
2
COMMISSIONER
PURVIS: Well, why didn't we come
3
back with $30,000?
4
MAYOR MURRY:
Well, we said 100 -- well, I
5
wanted to say 50,
myself. But, anyway --
6
COMMISSIONER
PURVIS: Well, you wanted to be
7
cheap, too.
8
MAYOR MURRY:
Well, that's true. I've always
9
tried to save the
City as much money as possible.
10
But, anyway, we said
the 125. And then we say, if
11
he don't accept the 125 and want to go higher, we
12
wanted specifics on
where you're coming up with this
13
figure. And he hasn't
provided those. So --
14
COMMISSIONER
PURVIS: Well, my recollection is
15
this.
16
MAYOR MURRY:
And according to Mr. Mantzaris,
17
if we do lose the
Motion to Dismiss, and everything,
18
and we have to go
further, I don't see it going much
19
more than $150,000.
Because, I think he's still
20
going to have to prove,
somewhere in the course,
21
where the damages
are.
22
COMMISSIONER
BATES: I would definitely like to
23
see those numbers.
24 MAYOR MURRY: Yeah.
25 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: My recollection was, we
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1 said it would be nice to be provided those numbers.
2 But, we never said that that was a line in the sand,
3 to move forward.
4 COMMISSIONER BATES: But, I'd still like to see
5 them.
6 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, I would, too. But,
7 you know, you never see the real dealer's invoice on
8 a car, either. So -- but, I don't know of one
9 attorney -- defense attorney -- that has ever said
10 to their client, tell your wife you'll be home for
11 dinner tonight. Because, you just don't know what
12 the judge is going to do. And that's the wild card.
13 Is that true, Doug?
14 MR. NOAH: Yeah.
15 MR. NEAL: Well, I mean, that's true if we're
16 talking about a trial, and one side is going to win
17 and one side is going to lose.
18 On a Motion to Dismiss -- let me be clear,
19 again -- if the judge says, no, on the Motion to
20 Dismiss, we haven't lost anything. We -- we could
21 file a responsive pleading to this, today, admit,
22 deny, admit, deny, affirmative defenses. If we file
23 a Motion to Dismiss, if the judge reads these cases
24 like we do, she could -- he or she could throw the
25 case out and we could win. The judge may say, no,
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Dismiss. But -- and this is for the record -- don't
be surprised when he comes back and he's going to
ask for more, okay? If -- if it does not go
through.
MR. MANTZARIS: All right. Well, that's what
we understand and that's basically the consensus.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: So, you're going to
support filing a Motion, rather than put an end to
this agony?
COMMISSIONER PINES: A Motion to Dismiss is not
going to hurt.
COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: I hate that -- I hate
when it sounds like that.
MAYOR MURRY: It's not going to hurt. But, I'm
just -- I'm sorry, it's hard for me to just say,
okay, I'm going to give away money, without --
without some type of fight.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: We are not giving away
money. We have earned a good slap on the wrist on
this one.
21
MR. MANTZARIS:
Well,
if I could --
22
MAYOR MURRY: Well --
23
MR. MANTZARIS:
If I
could, just -- obviously,
24
we've been looking --
Tom,
and our office, have been
25
looking at all this.
What
we do have now is an
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1 ability for, you know, another lawyer to come in and
2 take a look at it. I'm not going to put Doug on the
3 spot, because he hasn't seen anything. But, I mean,
4 we certainly could move forward with that. And
5 after Doug and his team has an opportunity to look
6 at it, if they feel like there's something that
7 needs to be changed in the course of conduct,
8 they're certainly going to tell us that. And
9 they're going to be frank, because they have the
10 City's best interest at heart, the same as we do.
11 So, with that caveat, we could move forward
12 with it, if Doug has an opportunity to get a second
13 set of legal eyes on it, and see if there's
14 something that -- that we may have missed or we may
15 feel that we may be too confident on.
16 COMMISSIONER BATES: Well, it sounds like you
17 got a consensus to move forward with --
i
18 COMMISSIONER PINES: The Motion.
19 MR. MANTZARIS: And then, we'll circle back.
20 And you'll trust us to know that, if we feel like
21 there's going to be an issue with it, that we're
22 going to do it to the best interest of the City and
23 bring it back to you and -- and have some more
24 discussion on it.
25 COMMISSIONER PINES: Okay.
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1 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Ebo, where's your head?
2 I'm just curious, myself.
3 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: Yeah. No, I mean, I
4 hate it. I hate this all. I'm being honest.
5 Because, I think he deserves -- he deserves some
6 type of recuperation, you know? But, at the same
7 time, like you said, we do have to deal with what is
8 in -- I hate using that phrase -- what is in the
9 best interest of the City. Because, it makes it
10 seem selfish. But -- yeah, go ahead. Yeah, go
11 ahead and do it.
12 MAYOR MURRY: Let me say this. You hate using,
13 "the best interest of the City." But that's what
14 we were elected to do, what's in the best interest
15 of the City. And, to me, it does not seem selfish.
16 Because, if we start just handing out money,
17 like this, here, anyone can come up and start filing
18 claims on a, "he say/she say," or something. And
19 then, the next thing you know, we're handing out
20 more money. For what? You got to put a fight up,
21 first, and let them know that there is not no open
22 bank and we're just not out there giving away money,
23 City money. Okay? No.
24 I mean, I truly feel that's why The Art
25 District haven't did anything, yet. Because,
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1 they're trying to see if we're just going to give VP
2 this money. And, if so, I think we'll be in a
3 bigger fight with The Art District. If we don't
4 cave to VP, and everything, The Art District, I
5 don't think they're going to come in asking for too
6 much more. They're going to keep it more realistic.
7 MR. MANTZARIS: All right. Well, to keep us on
8 schedule -- because, there's not much time for -- I
9 think we've got enough direction to move forward
10 with that. So, we'll just hang up on this one with
11 Tom and we'll go to the Sprinkles matter.
12 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Can we just put on the
13 record what the consensus was?
14 MR. MANTZARIS: Yeah. Well, the consensus, as
15 I understand the direction, was to move forward with
16 the filing of the Motion to Dismiss. And then --
17 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: With a consensus of 4 to
18 1?
19 MR. MANTZARIS: Well, we can't do that.
20 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Let's hang up on this
21 one.
22 MR. MANTZARIS: We're done, on this one. Thank
23 you, Tom.
24 MR. NEAL: Thank you. Good seeing everyone,
25 again.
L_
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 COUNTY OF ORANGE )
5
6 I, Diane C. Roberts, Notary Public, State of
7 Florida, was authorized to and did stenographically
8 report the foregoing proceedings, and that the
9 transcript, Pages 3 through 51, is a true and accurate
10 record of my stenographic notes.
11
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, or
13 employee, or attorney, or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
15 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
16 financially interested in the action.
17 Dated this loth day of November 2021.
18
19
20
21
Diane C. Roberts, FPR
22
23
24
25
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[magic - numbers]
in
magic 17:9,10
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mailed 9:4
making 10:915:14
27:25
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[o - provide]
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[provided - saved]
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[saying - talk]
saying 6:18 19:4
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[talk - wanting]
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CLOSED LITIGATION SESSION
RE: STEPHEN SPRINKLES
IN ATTENDANCE: TIMOTHY BATES, SEAT 1
JIM PURVIS, SEAT 2
EBO ENTSUAH, SEAT 4
MICHELE PINES, SEAT 5
TIM MURRY, MAYOR
DANIEL F. MANTZARIS, CITY ATTORNEY
SCOTT DAVIDOFF, ACTING CITY MANAGER
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
DATE TAKEN:
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TIME:
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LOCATION:
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REPORTED BY:
OCTOBER 26, 2021
9:02 P.M. UNTIL 9:52 P.M.
CITY OF CLERMONT
685 W. MONTROSE STREET, 1ST FLOOR
PLANNING CONFERENCE ROOM
CLERMONT, FLORIDA 34712
DIANE C. ROBERTS
FLORIDA PROFESSIONAL REPORTER
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DOUGLAS T. NOAH, ESQUIRE
OF: Dean, Ringers, Morgan & Lawton, P.A.
201 E. Pine Street, Suite 1200
Orlando, FL 32801
dnoah@drml-law.com
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P R O C E E D I N G S
MR. MANTZARIS: Okay. So, the same discussion
we just had. This is one of the times we're meeting
in a closed litigation session to talk about the
possible settlement and litigation expense of an
ongoing litigation matter.
We're going to talk now about the Sprinkles --
Stephen Sprinkles case against the City of Clermont.
Doug has been the recent defense counsel on this. I
think, Mr. Bates -- maybe, Mr. Purvis, were you in
the last closed litigation session we had?
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I was.
MR. MANTZARIS: I think the two of you were
probably in that.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I still need a lot of
education, though.
MR. MANTZARIS: And at that time, one of Doug's
partners were representing the case, and Doug has
taken over representation of it from him. So, that
was John Conner, if you might remember, was handling
it.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Okay.
MR. MANTZARIS: So, I'm going to let Doug
just -- basically, he's been handling it. He's run
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1 lead on it and he knows everything -- the ins and
2 outs about it, and he can give you the status of
3 where we are.
4 MR. NOAH: Do you have the names of everybody
5 that's in attendance at the meeting and the time
6 we're starting?
7 COURT REPORTER: The time is 9:03.
8 MR. NOAH: Just go ahead and record that.
9 COURT REPORTER: Yes.
10 MR. NOAH: Okay. And as you all know, we
11 cannot go off the record at any time. The court
12 reporter is taking down everything that we say in
13 the room. And when she is finished with this, those
14 notes will be transcribed into English, they'll be
15 provided to the City Clerk, and the Clerk will hold
16 those confidentially until all litigation matters
17 are over.
18 So, I want to be respectful of everybody's
19 time. Typically, the agenda that I follow is to
20 provide what the background of the case is, what
21 the current status is, some consequences -- because,
22 we've had ruling in this case -- and then, what
23 the future progression is going to be, and then
24 entertain discussion. But, obviously, feel free to
25 interrupt me any time that you want. And I work for
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you, not the other way around. So, if anybody has a
different agenda that they want to follow, or have
questions right off the bat, we're here to make you
all feel comfortable and knowledgeable about this
case. Okay? Not seeing any objections, then I'll
just go ahead and move forward.
So, Mr. Sprinkles bought a lot in Clermont in
2011. And let me just orient you -all to where this
is. I know that you're not going to be able to see
this very well, but -- so, if we have Lake Minneola
here, and this is Minneola Street, if I've got my
directions right, the property is like right over
here. And the property that we're talking about,
I've highlighted it in yellow. There's two lots
there, and I've highlighted actually the area of the
property approximately that is not in dispute.
Okay?
This map becomes important for a couple of
reasons. When Mr. Sprinkles purchased this
property, his Warranty Deed said that he took it
according to this particular map that I'm showing
you. And that's significant. Because, this map
shows that the property that he's buying does not
have ingress and egress to Minneola Street, because
there is the depiction of a lake here. So, when he
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purchases this property, he's buying it subject to
this area. And there's -- there are four Supreme
Court cases that actually say that, okay --
So, why -- this part is in dispute.
Mr. Sprinkles says he owns the lot, that extends
all the way up to Minneola, and the City says that
he does not. So, how has that disputed? How has
that become crystalized? Okay. Well, from
Mr. Sprinkles' standpoint, so he's not a
particularly sophisticated investor. He purchased
a piece of land from a friend of his. The friend
told him that the land could be developed and he
goes out there and looks at the land. He pulls up
on Minneola Street and he can access the land from
Minneola Street. And he doesn't -- when he signs
his deed, he's not going down to the public records,
to see if there -- what kind of restrictions are on
this property. And I'm not being pejorative, by the
way, when I say he's not sophisticated. He will
tell you that, directly, okay? So, that's how he
comes to own the property.
Now, this is what the property looks like when
we fast -forward to 2017. So, we're talking about
these two parcels, okay? And now what you can see
is the Victoria Point. All of that is stormwater.
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And there's a sophist- -- there's a better name for
it.
3 MR. MANTZARIS: Victory Point.
4 MR. NOAH: Victory Point, sorry about that.
5 But, it's a real nice development that is over
6 there and it also helps filter water that's going
7 into Minneola. But, you can see that it's
8 encroaching on one of the lots and, potentially,
9 another one. This line, right here, this is the
10 waterline that I was showing you. So, the City
11 says, well, he never owned from this point, down to
12 this point.
13 Let's talk about that. Why would the City say
14 that? Because, in the 140s, there was a special
15 enactment, and the special enactment said that any
16 property that the State owns, that is underwater --
17 I'm being a little bit overly broad, but, basically,
18 it goes to the local jurisdictions where that is
19 located. So, this -- this area being designated as
20 West Lake being underwater, at least, at the time
21 that the plat is drawn back in the 1920's, the City
22 believes, well, the property is conveyed to us by
23 this special enactment.
24 So, the Plaintiff, I think, has done a good
25 job in this case. What he did is, he went to
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Tallahassee, and asked Tallahassee, did you ever own
this property? And Tallahassee -- the State, denies
that it ever owned the property. And since it
wasn't owned by the State, it wasn't the State's to
convey, and so it's not the City's. All right? So,
that's the fact pattern that we come to, now.
What about from Mr. Sprinkles' standpoint? Why
does he think he owns this area? Well, I told you
the practical reason, but there are basically two
legal reasons that he asserts as to why he owns this
property. The first one -- there's really three
legal reasons. The first one is that this map is
drawn wrong. This whole area should be depicted --
he had an expert that says this, a surveyor. This
whole area should be depicted over to the west, and,
therefore, it never encroached on this property.
So, you go to the next monument, which is the
roadway. So, he owns it all the way down to the
roadway. That's kind of like their technical
surveyor argument. Not so much a legal argument,
but good surveying practices.
The legal argument is twofold. First, it's a
pattern in practice of the City. So, the City has
treated this as though it is private property.
There's been a structure on this, a housing
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structure. There's been access onto the property.
There's been building permits. Not all building
permits, by the way, were being issued by the City.
At one time, when the County was issuing permits for
the City, the County issued these. There -- there's
been code enforcement against the property.
And, so, once it became clear that the State
didn't own this, our argument became very
formalistic. It was, Mr. Sprinkles does not have
standing to bring this suit, because he doesn't
own -- he cannot demonstrate that he owns this
particular area. And all of the things that I just
told you about the City practices have occurred
outside of this area. That's disputed. That's been
the City's position.
The other legal argument is that, in Florida,
the way it works, is, when you have water -- and, in
this particular case, the water starts to dry up and
move away -- then, the property owners that had the
property adjacent to the water, they acquire that
property. It kind of follows the waterline. So,
once this became dry -- it's called reliction. And
once this area became dry, he acquired ownership of
all the land all the way up to the -- to the street.
So, that -- those were the different positions
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1 that the parties took about ownership. And -- and
2 they briefed them, in the form of a Motion for
3 Summary Judgment, which is, basically, both sides
4 puts on the evidence they have, the record evidence,
5 to the judge. It's kind of like a trial. But, they
6 put on the record evidence, and they say, Judge,
7 their case doesn't get any better than it is today
8 and we are entitled to judgment as a matter of law.
9 And we filed cross motions making each of these
10 arguments, the City's argument, and they made the
11 Plaintiff's argument.
12 The judge -- the judge recounted the evidence
13 that was put in. But, other than recounting the
14 evidence, he really didn't comment on it. He really
15 decided this case on the reliction issue. He said
16 that, as best he could tell the facts, there was
17 once water on this property. The water has receded,
18 and so it receded to Mr. Sprinkles' benefit and he
19 owns the property. And as I showed you, as of 2017,
20 now, given the Judge's finding, we are on the
21 property. So, that has consequences.
22 There were four or five different legal
23 theories that the Plaintiff put out. One was
24 inverse condemnation, and one was trespass, and
25 then, the other, kind of repetitive of those two.
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Now, with the inverse condemnation, the
findings that were on the property turns this
process really into what becomes like an eminent
domain proceeding. Okay? And, so, the first step
is, we go back to the Court -- this is the plan.
The things -- I told you the status, and now I'm
going to go to the progress of the case, the
consequences and the progress of the case into the
future.
What the parties have to do is go in front of
the judge, again, and get a meets and bounds
description -- one of those very technical
descriptions -- about how the property lies, how
much of the property has been taken by the City, and
how much remains in -- in Mr. Sprinkles' control.
Now, this might sound a little bit
counterintuitive. But, what they would like is for
the Court to find that -- I'm kind of confused, in
my -- yes. What they would like is for the Court to
find that all of their property was taken along this
line. And why is that? Because, no ingress/egress
from the property means that there's nothing they
can do with the property. Meaning, that they have
this huge loss without any countervailing offset,
okay? So, that is going to be their argument.
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1 That's what we anticipate.
i
2 What we anticipate arguing is that the -- the
3 City's encroachment is only where it's depicted on
4 this map. There is a 20-foot area here where they
5 can still gain access. I will tell you, there's a
6 pump of some sort at that location. That pump would
7 have to be moved, for them to actually be able to
8 use it now. So, that's the first thing, is, we're
9 going to get clarification from the Court about
10 exactly what has been taken.
11 The second thing is, now, just like in eminent
12 domain proceeding, the Court is going to swear in
13 12 jurors to hear this case and to determine what
14 the damages are. The damages are going to be
15 calculated according to a standard that's called
16 highest and best use. And, so, the -- all of these
17 things have disputes associated with them, of
18 course. So, the Plaintiff's experts -- let me tell
19 you what -- what they are saying, up to date. These
20 have not been finalized, yet. But, the --
21 initially, the Plaintiffs hired Marvin Puryear --
22 MR. MANTZARIS: Um -hum.
23 MR. NOAH: -- who is a broker, to estimate what
24 the loss has been. Mr. Puryear put the loss well
25 north of a million dollars. Since that time, they
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have retained -- in anticipation of this hearing
that I told you about, where we're going to
determine the compensation that's due, they have
hired Richard Dreggors. And the anticipation, of
course, is that he'll put an equally large number
on the board, and they are entitled to attorneys'
fees. And, to date, their attorneys' fees are
approximately $230,000, up through the time of
Summary Judgment. They had incorporated a new
lawyer to take over the eminent domain proceedings,
a very seasoned lawyer, a very good lawyer, and a
lawyer who charges -- I don't know what his bills
are, but his name is Jay Small, if this means
anything to you. But, Jay Small has been putting in
a tremendous amount of work getting this case ready.
Current status is that the -- the parties
determine, first, that they would need some time to
get their experts geared up. And I'm going to
talk about exposure in a minute. But, to get their
experts geared up for this hearing would take some
time. So, there's been a continuance granted. And,
so, that hearing won't go until one of the parties
says, we're ready for this to go, and then the Court
will put it on a hearing date. So, we don't have
an immediate date for that hearing to take place.
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That's a good and bad thing. It gives us time to
have meetings like this and decide what we want to
do with this case, but it's bad because they are on
the meter and it's running all the time. And, so,
when I say on the meter, I mean on the City or on
the League's meter.
I have also filed an appeal. This -- the
appeal -- just so you know, it's only a Notice of
Appeal. It's something that has a very strict
deadline associated with it. And if you miss the
deadline, you lose your appellate rights. So, I
filed, in the assurance that we would not lose that
right. There is a dispute between the parties
about whether or not we have a final order that is
appealable. Because, the Court only ruled finally
on some counts, not on all counts. So, that's
another issue that we're discussing right now and
also gives us time to think about how we want to
defend the case. So, that's the liability issue.
The liability has been decided.
The last time you -all were together with
Mr. Connor, I think that he was pretty clear that,
when you go in to a hearing like that, or to trial,
with the sense that, yeah, we don't own it, but
they can't prove that they own it either, you know,
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you're kind of negotiating from a position of
weakness at that point. If it's going to be
overturned, it'll have to be overturned by the
Fifth.
And I will say that the Court, in my
estimation, got right to a concise issue, didn't
have a lot of frivolousness in his order. The order
is only about like five pages long. He cited the
strength of the cases as he saw them. And, so, that
is what will be going up on appeal. He's either
interpreted those cases correctly or he hasn't. So,
an appeal is -- is a coin toss, at best, is how I
see it, right now. Okay? So, let's talk about
exposure, unless anybody has any other questions on
liability, before we move on.
COMMISSIONER BATES: Well, it almost sounds
17 1 like --
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COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I have one question.
But, go ahead, Michele.
COMMISSIONER PINES: I have a question. The
million dollars that they're throwing out there,
that's for the entire property? It's not for the
portion that was taken?
MAYOR MURRY: Just for the portion taken, isn't
it?
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MR. NOAH: Correct. And it's going to be north
of a million.
COMMISSIONER PINES: It's for the full
property -- the full property --
MR. NOAH: Correct.
COMMISSIONER PINES: -- with the dried-up
lakefront portion? The entire property?
MR. NOAH: The entire property.
COMMISSIONER PINES: So, that's north of a
million?
MR. NOAH: And I'm going to come back to
exposure. I'm going to go into detail. Because, I
can tell you, there's going to be a deep dispute
about exposure. So, I promise you, I'm going to
answer that question.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, you mentioned, in
your opening comments, that, prior to him purchasing
it, he pulled up in front of the property, and I
think you said he eyeballed it, it had access to the
street. I assume that was Minneola Avenue.
So, he literally pulled up and said, that's the
potential lot, and here's, I guess, a curb cut, or
whatever, that existed there.
MR. NOAH: I'm not 100 percent sure on the curb
cut.
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COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Okay.
MR. NOAH: I didn't see it. But, he told me he
pulled up in the street.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: But, it actually did come
to the street?
MR. NOAH: Yeah. I think he told me he pulled
up on the grass.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Okay.
MR. NOAH: I think that that's --
MAYOR MURRY: I don't think there was a curb
along that area. So, you could easily pull up onto
the curb -- or onto the grass.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, the only reason I
said curb cut was, didn't you say that there was a
house there and some code enforcement?
MAYOR MURRY: The house is a little further up.
COMMISSIONER PINES: There's a duplex.
COMMISSIONER BATES: There's a house demo'd on
the property.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: So, do you think they had
a curb cut?
COMMISSIONER BATES: Well, not necessarily.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, I guess not. But,
you know, anyway.
MR. NOAH: Your point is taken. They -- they
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1 could drive up on the lot. That's the point that
2 you're making, and that is true.
3 COMMISSIONER PINES: And you said they had
4 20 feet access to get up onto the property,
5 currently?
6 MR. NOAH: Now, yes, ma'am. That's correct.
7 COMMISSIONER PINES: Um -hum.
8 MR. NOAH: Okay. Now, what they're going to
9 argue is that we've taken all the way to the
10 waterline, which is going to put it -- which would
11 cut off that access. But, anyway, I -- I kind of
12 like the City's argument on that, that there is an
13 easement.
14 Now, again, even as I say that, there is a pump
15 or an obstruction there. And, so, that -- that
16 would have to be moved. And I'm not even sure what
17 that is, to be honest, if it aerates the lake, or --
18 I'm not quite sure what that is. I've heard
19 different things.
20 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Do you know, Scott?
21 MR. DAVIDOFF: No, I don't -- I'm not sure what
22 ithat is.
23 j MR. NOAH: So, now I would like to go from
24 liability to exposure, okay? Exposure. This is
25 on -- what is going to happen, now, to the -- to the
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City, with respect to the Judge's finding, unless
it's overruled by the Fifth District Court of
Appeals, they will have experts -- well, let me --
let me start with this. The first thing is, the
exposure will somewhat depend on whether or not
there is the access. So, let's assume that the pump
blocks the access, or whatever that apparatus is out
there right now, it blocks the access. Our expert,
of course, can reduce the exposure, if the -- if the
City would agree to move that pump and to provide
access, because now the property will have some use.
That's number one.
The other issue with exposure is, as you know,
the -- I'll probably get this wrong, but the
business development district. The new -- that is
kind of surrounding this property. Right now, the
property is zoned in a way to where its highest and
best use would be -- if they could get it approved,
would be either a duplex or a quadplex, okay? And
what their expert -- the person whose name I threw
out, Mr. Puryear, he's assuming that it's going to
be a quadplex, okay? And he has his method of
determining loss.
And, so, what he basically says -- and, again,
this is subject to change. But, just to give you a
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feel of where they're going, it's going to be --
it's going to be changed when Dreggors comes on.
He'll be their real money person. But, basically,
how he gets there, is, he assumes that a duplex
could have been built when the property was taken.
He gets a -- he does some comparables of what
duplexes are pulling in. There's some -- there's
arguments for some of this, okay? I'll just put it
that way. Because, he messes up the timeline. This
property was taken back in 2017. And he confuses --
or inflates, I should say, not confuses -- smart
guy -- but, he inflates 2017 prices with 2021
prices, and those are different markets.
But, set that stuff aside, for a moment. What
he does is, he makes some comparables. He gets so
many square feet. He looks at how many square feet
could be built, if this was a quadplex, and he comes
up with a number, and the number is going to be
north of a million, okay? So, that's how he gets
there.
If it is part of the business district, okay?
So, now, what the -- and, keep in mind, highest and
best use has a reasonableness component. So, I'm
just telling you the argument that they're going to
make. Whether or not they could get these things
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approved or not -- whether it's likely that the
Commission would approve it or not -- is a different
issue.
But, what they are going to argue is, now, if
they have the business district zoning, first of
all, the argument is going to be, we can anticipate
that we will get it. Because, it's all around this
property. So, you know, we have kind of a donut,
where this is the only property that doesn't have
it, so it's likely that it would be granted. The --
now, they can put up two units, up to a height of
four. And then, they have lake view. Because, on
the top floors, you can see Lake Minneola. And, so,
they -- they're -- they put all of these things
together and they come up with a number.
Here's what all our -- there will be a big
debate between the experts. And the jury, 12
people, are going to have to determine what they
take from it and just put a value on the property.
So, let me give you theirs, first, so you have the
sticker shock out of the way.
COMMISSIONER PINES: Can I ask you a quick
question? What is the size of the property? Do we
know? Or the dimensions of it?
MR. NOAH: It's pretty -- I do have the
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dimensions, and it's -- it's pretty small. I mean,
it's --
COMMISSIONER PINES: Um -hum. I'm wondering the
dimensions. Because, is it -- is it even buildable?
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, I'm sure it's
buildable, to some degree. But, I agree with you.
You're not going to get a fourplex on it --
COMMISSIONER PINES: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: -- or a three -and -a -half
story lake -view building.
COMMISSIONER BATES: Not now. But, you might
have, prior.
MAYOR MURRY: No, they aren't going to do it
prior. Those are very small.
MR. NOAH: They had less opportunities, prior.
It's the new zoning that would allow them to have
the four floors. There's costs associated with it,
if it goes up four floors, and there's elevators
that have to be installed. That maintenance is a
huge -- so, these numbers are very much up in the
air. So -- but, at any rate, we know that Dreggors
is going to put a big number on the board. And, so,
if it's a million -five, or whatever it is, he'll
follow probably about the same kind of format that
Puryear did.
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What does our expert say? So, our expert takes
a -- kind of a pragmatic look at it. He takes a
look at what the cost -- he has doubts. Because,
you take a look at the construction costs that it
would take. Once you get all of the collection of
the construction costs, then you can back out what
they would have to charge for these things in order
to cover the costs. And the number is up there,
somewhere like 450 and 560.
Victoria Point is a project that's contemplated
just right where the same property is. Victoria
Point, the latest that I've heard is, they've given
up on their project now and they're selling it for
the value of the raw land. And it's not just the
value of the raw land, it's the value of -- and I
don't know if you've heard this, but the value of
the raw land, plus all of the designs that they
have. Whoever would purchase it would get the
designs and the current zoning and everything.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Is this the lumber yard?
MR. DAVIDOFF: No.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I'm lost.
MR. NOAH: Victoria Point, I want to say, is,
just right south of this.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: It's on Montrose Street,
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isn't it?
COURT REPORTER: I can't get people talking at
the same time. But, go ahead.
MR. NOAH: I want to say, Victoria Point is on
Montrose Street, right behind where this property
is. Does that ring a bell?
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Is that Darren Johnson's?
COMMISSIONER PINES: I think they're talking
about Darren's --
MAYOR MURRY: Marketplace.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Marketplace, okay.
COMMISSIONER PINES: And the apartments.
COMMISSIONER BATES: I thought there were some
condos, or something, going there.
MR. MANTZARIS: Okay, guys. You can't talk
over each other.
COMMISSIONER BATES: I thought there was a
project over there somewhere, where they were
pre -selling some type of condo units.
COMMISSIONER PINES: That's -- that's on
Montrose.
COMMISSIONER BATES: That's the one I think I'm
talking about. It has three floors?
MR. NOAH: It has three floors.
COMMISSIONER BATES: Um -hum.
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1 COMMISSIONER PINES: Yeah. It's grass.
2 COMMISSIONER BATES: Grass.
3 COMMISSIONER PINES: Okay. Gotcha.
4 MR. NOAH: So, my understanding -- if we're --
5 if we're talking -- I don't want to give bad
6 information. I'm not -- I'm from Orlando, so I'm
7 not familiar with what's going on, here. But, it's
8 been explained to me as Victoria Point, I thought.
9 So -- but, it's a three -- it's a three -level
10 complex. I think that there's two or three, each
11 floor.
12 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: And it has a parking lot
13 underneath.
14 MR. NOAH: It has parking underneath Darren's,
15 right.
16 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: That's Darren Johnson's
17 property.
18 MR. NOAH: Well, I understand now that they've
19 given up on the project, and they're going to sell
20 it for the raw land, plus all the design and
21 everything.
22 COMMISSIONER PINES: Yeah.
23 MR. NOAH: And the sale price for that is not a
24 million -six, a million -five, it's a million -one, is
25 what I understand. Okay?
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1 So, why does our expert think that's important?
2 Because, the speculation is that they couldn't get
3 the units sold for those prices. And -- and those
4 prices were lower than what these folks would have
5 to charge if they had the four floors, or the three
6 floors, or something. So, he has this idea that
7 it's probably not feasible, going in. So, that's
8 one issue.
9 Then, the other issue is that, even when he
10 does his comparables, and he's looking at the dollar
11 value per square foot of comparable duplexes, and
12 quadplexes, and so forth, that is around -- and,
13 right now, he has about -- I want to say -- he
14 showed me about eight of them -- the dollar per
15 square foot he's giving is much less. And I wish I
16 was more articulate about this. But, the number
17 that he -- he says that he does not believe that
18 they can get above $100,000 for the remainder -- I
19 feel like I'm messing that up. He's putting their
20 damages at $100,000. I can be clear with you on
21 that, because I had a meeting with him just today.
22 He thinks that that's your worst exposure.
23 So, you know, we have an expert that's saying a
24 million, we have an expert that's saying $100,000.
25 And just so you know, by way of background,
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Mr. Sprinkles tried to sell this property on two
different occasions. Both times, he tried to sell
it for about $80,000, and those sales fell through
and there was a problem with the title. It very
well could be this very same issue, with the lake
encroachment or the old lake encroachment. But,
that's the battle that we have. And --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Can I jump in, a second?
MR. NOAH: Sure.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Is a title company
involved in this in any way, that they might have
some exposure, too?
MR. NOAH: Lots of conversation about that in a
prior shade meeting.
Mr. Sprinkles -- I'm a little bit confused, to
be honest with you, on what Mr. Sprinkles' testimony
was. On the one hand, he seems to be saying, yes, I
had title coverage. So, then, the logical next
question was, well, what is the claim? Did you make
a claim on them for exactly this? His response was,
yes, but the claim was denied. And, so -- and we
don't have good evidence on why the claim was
denied, okay? You kind of want to speculate that
perhaps it had something to do with, the coverage
was only down to the lake, or something along those
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1 lines. Okay?
2 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Okay.
3 MR. NOAH: My thinking is -- let's assume that
4 there was coverage. If there was coverage and it
5 was paid out, I think you'd be in the same shape
6 anyway, because I think it would be the insurance
7 company, then, coming after the City for like a
8 subrogation claim or something along those lines.
9 Some sort of --
10 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: That was the point of my
11 question.
12 MR. NOAH: Yeah. So -- so, where we are, right
13 now, we have a ruling from the Court that we have
14 taken property. This -- this enters the realm, now,
15 of eminent domain. There's an appeal pending, but
16 it is in the offing, right now. It's -- your rights
17 are preserved, but we're not briefing the issue, or
18 anything. And, meanwhile, we are going to have an
19 eminent domain proceeding.
20 Now, when -- I just feel like I would like to
21 throw this out before I go into too much detail.
22 One tangent, if I may, okay? The League hires
23 lawyers to represent your interest, okay? I do not
24 represent the League. And that can be a source of
25 misunderstanding, sometimes. You all may have
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gotten this speech, once or twice. My duties, my
loyalties, runs to the City exactly like Dan's do,
okay? The only thing that differentiates me from
Dan, is, I only represent you on this one case, Dan
represents you on everything, including this case.
So, he gets to second guess me, but I never get to
second guess Dan. So, that's the direction that the
arrow is pointing.
MR. MANTZARIS: He's not public.
MR. NOAH: So -- so, at any rate, I tell you
that, to tell you this. The League does pay me,
however. And, so, it puts me in a conflict
situation if there is any kind of dispute between
the City and the League. But, I do represent you
all, so this is what you need to know.
The League has taken the position -- this is
the latest conversation I've had with the League,
okay? And Dan may have some more information on
this. But, the League has taken the position that,
wait a minute, this is now an eminent domain
proceeding. We don't cover eminent domain. And,
so, therefore, City, you are now on your own.
Except, if the Court were to overrule the taking,
okay, then -- then, the League's coverage continues.
But, as long as it is in the posture that it
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1 currently is, the League has told me that they don't
2 think that they have coverage for that claim
3 anymore.
4 There are some nuances to that, that you -all
5 should know. It was not only an inverse
6 condemnation claim that was brought, it was also a
7 trespass claim. And, I don't know, I've never read
8 your policy. I kind of think that the trespass
9 claim might still be covered. But, I'm just letting
10 you know that the League has taken that posture.
11 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Have they cut you off?
12 MR. NOAH: Yeah. So, let's talk about that.
13 If the League does cut off coverage, then, yes, they
14 will no longer pay our salary, okay? Because, there
15 is no defense to put on. Sometimes, as you know,
16 Commissioner, there -- there are reservations of
17 rights, where they will say, hey, I can't promise
18 you I'm going to pay for the exposure. However,
19 I'll pay for the cost of defense. We -- I have not
20 worked out those details. That's something that the
21 City is going to have to work on with the League,
22 directly. Because, I'm in a conflict, so I can't
23 get into that.
24 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Sure.
25 MR. NOAH: But, there's -- there's different
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1 levels of being cut off, I guess, for lack of a
2 better word.
3 So, that's -- that's where the posture is.
4 Which suggests to me that, you know, now we're kind
5 of like with the last case. We're to gain theory.
6 You're trying to decide what to do, based on what
7 you think somebody else might do. I think it's
8 going to be a heavy price tag to try to settle this
9 case. I think that they think that they're on the
10 meter, now.
11 COMMISSIONER BATES: We're in a no -win
12 situation, it sounds like. And my thought is, cut
13 our losses and move on. Because, I'm afraid the
14 League is going you to cut you -all off, and then
15 where do we go from that point?
16 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Even if it's only a 50/50
17 chance of that happening, do you really want to roll
18 that set of dice?
19 COMMISSIONER BATES: No.
20 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I don't.
21 COMMISSIONER BATES: What would happen if the
22 League did pull the plug?
23 MR. MANTZARIS: We would have to -- we would --
24 we would consider the case -- the City would
25 consider the case like a general eminent domain
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1 action associated with a large stormwater project
2 that the City has done. So, we would work through
3 that, and the project costs would basically have to
4 pay for the acquisition of the land that was part of
5 the -- part of the Victory Point project. So,
6 that's how -- that's how it would be considered.
7 And it wouldn't -- the insurance company wouldn't be
8 involved in it.
9 In other words, if, at the time that the
10 project was done, all this had been already decided,
11 then the City would have said, we need this property
12 for our project. We're going to acquire the
13 property and we're going to pay you, property owner,
14 for access to your property. That's how -- we're
15 going to try to get back to that. Obviously, if we
16 had done it that way, the cost would have been a lot
17 less, for the City. But -- but, we don't have that.
18 COMMISSIONER BATES: We're past that.
19 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: We're past that.
20 MR. MANTZARIS: So, we would -- you know,
21 typically, when we work with eminent domain actions,
22 as Doug has pointed out, if that were to happen,
23 then we would quickly be trying to get with -- get
24 with the Plaintiff on it. Eminent domain actions,
25 they would require us to go to mediation. We'd try
i
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to go to mediation and we would try to work out a
settlement.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: And where do the funds
come from, for the settlement?
MR. MANTZARIS: I would imagine that, since
this is property that's used as part of the
stormwater project, the Victory Point project, it
would possibly come out of whatever funds were
available in the City stormwater funds, so we would
be able to deal with that. Again, this would be --
looking back on it, I'm recreating it, and this
would have been --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: That's going to be a heck
of a budget amendment.
MR. MANTZARIS: Well, we'd have to -- you know,
we'd have to deal with it. But, I think where we
are right now -- and, obviously, Doug's done a good
job explaining to you where we are on it -- I did
have a conversation with the adjuster from the
League on this, and they are ripe to participate in
a resolution or a settlement offer on this if the
City is willing to contribute. I can't -- the
adjuster didn't tell me how much the League would
pay. But, they -- we're in this sort of window of,
they're still in it, they're still paying Doug and
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his firm to basically do the work. They realize
that, if -- you know, if the appeal goes one way or
another, there might be coverage. If it goes the
other way, there won't be coverage. But, the bottom
line, right now, they're willing to potentially
talk.
I don't know whether we can put together a
number -- Doug knows better than me, because he's
dealt with them -- that the Plaintiff would take.
To date, I think we've been to two mediations on
this.
MR. NOAH: Correct. Now, at the mediation, we
did not offer what I would consider substantial
money, though.
MR. MANTZARIS: Or real money.
MR. NOAH: Right. So --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: What was offered, Doug?
MR. MANTZARIS: I want to say, $30,000.
MR. NOAH: $30,000, something in that
neighborhood.
So, what I can tell you is what has been
conveyed to me now. What has been conveyed to me
is, we're not really interested in having a third
mediation unless there is some offer that's extended
now from the -- I say, the Defendant, because it
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1 would probably be a combination of League and City
2 money. So, we want to see some money coming our way
3 before we even decide if we're going to get in the
4 room with you again. That's what they've conveyed
5 to me. I don't know if that's puffing, or what that
6 is.
7 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I have a number. 250.
8 Now, Michele is doing a lot of homework.
9 MAYOR MURRY: She's crunching.
10 COMMISSIONER PINES: Well, I'm on my phone, so
11 I'm trying to figure out the size of the property.
I
12 But, there's a property over by the little Mexican
13 restaurant, there, that sold in July for $300,000.
14 It's considered a residential property.
15 COMMISSIONER BATES: Let me ask this, while
16 you're doing that.
17 MR. MANTZARIS: Well, yeah. You don't want to
18 be --
19 COMMISSIONER PINES: I'm not --
20 COMMISSIONER BATES: Say we throw out a low
21 number -- whether it's 300, whatever -- and they're
22 wanting a million, or two million, or -- what did
23 you -- how much?
24 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: He said, north of a
25 million.
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MR. DOAH: I said, north of a million.
COMMISSIONER BATES: And they take offense to
that, so to speak, and they decide to push this and
go forward with it. Would we -- back to your point
a while ago -- would we be on the hook, if we ended
up losing, to pay for all their attorney fees and
everything else?
MR. NOAH: Yes.
COMMISSIONER BATES: So, it would be more than
a million?
MR. NOAH: Yeah. So, here's the -- this is the
way that I think the incentives come down.
If it is -- let's say we offer them something
that -- like -- I'll just make it easy. If we offer
them like $100,000, or something, something that was
really low, their attorneys' fees, right now -- I'm
pretty confident that the lawyer who took it through
Summary Judgment is somewhere in the 230, 240 range.
The lawyer that they have hired to do the eminent
domain proceeding, who -- and both of them are
competent folks, so that's important. Because, when
they go for their attorney fee award, the Court --
the Court will do one of two things. For the risks
that they've taken, they'll either increase the
hourly fee up to around 450 or 500 or 600 an hour,
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or they'll give them a multiplier.
So, I would say that Jay Small's fees --
currently, I think $50,000 is conservative, even
though he's just made an appearance. But, just
seeing how he's interacting with me, and how he's
keeping me jumping, and so forth, and how active
he's been, I know that those fees are running up.
So, to come back, Commissioner, I think that --
sorry, I got sidetracked on the incentives. Just
one more thing about the incentives. Let's assume
that you lowball on the property value. So, they --
so, they think it's worth a half -a -million, and we
want to say, well, it's worth $80,000, and, so,
that's all we're going to go, and we go to an
eminent domain proceeding. And do you know how this
works, Dan? Maybe you can help me out on it. But,
if -- if they get somewhere -- if they split that
baby, then I think that they get their attorneys'
fees, as well.
MR. MANTZARIS: Well, if we were going to treat
it like a true eminent domain, we would have to
throw an offer out there. And then, if they go to
trial and they beat -- and they beat our offer, then
they get a value based on the difference.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Okay.
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get their attorneys' fees,
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on how much they beat
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our offer. Yeah, it's --
4
COMMISSIONER PURVIS:
So, it leaves us pretty
5
exposed.
6
MR. MANTZARIS: It --
if we --
7
COMMISSIONER PINES:
Very much so.
8
MR. MANTZARIS: Yes,
sir.
9
COMMISSIONER BATES:
i
And I know this is going
10
i
to be hard to answer. Any idea how much they have,
11
already, in attorneys' fees?
12
MR. NOAH: I -- I --
I think -- I think it's
13
somewhere in the 230, 240,
range, for one person.
14
Another 50 for the other.
So, I think it's in the
15
300,000 range.
16
COMMISSIONER BATES:
And that's just attorneys'
17
fees.
18
COMMISSIONER PINES:
Right.
19
COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH:
It's crazy.
20
MR. NOAH: And that's
the attorneys' fees.
21
And I'm not quite sure on their -- how much
22
work their experts have done, because we haven't
23
received expert reports.
The -- the person that the
24
Judge relied on, whatever
her fees are, we'll be
25
paying her, as well. And
I'm sure that's in the
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1 $20,000 range.
2 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: And the beat goes on.
3 MR. BATES: We're just paying for everybody, at
4 this point.
5 COMMISSIONER PINES: We're here to make sure
6 this stuff never happens again.
7 MAYOR MURRY: Well, actually, we better have a
8 meeting, when something like that happens.
9 MR. MANTZARIS: I think that that's right.
10 MR. NOAH: I think that would be a good day,
11 with the League contributing to that, to soften that
12 up.
13 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Half -a -million?
14 MAYOR MURRY: Well, that's the figure I got in
15 my head.
16 COMMISSIONER BATES: Honestly, I'm thinking, at
17 least that.
18 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Half -a -million. But, you
19 won't give me 150.
20 MAYOR MURRY: There's a difference. They got
21 to prove that we did something wrong.
22 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: So, Doug, I think that I
23 really need to go on the official record, with this.
24 I -- I do not know Mr. Sprinkles. I think I
25 laid eyes on him once. I think he appeared in front
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1 of the City Council once.
2 MR. MANTZARIS: That was before.
3 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: That was -- okay. But, I
4 do know two of his investor partners.
5 COMMISSIONER BATES: Um -hum. We all do.
6 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Okay? And I tossed that
7 250 out, not thinking about the attorneys' fees.
8 Because, I kind of suspect, if they could get out
9 with their underwear, they would take it and run.
10 One of the individuals is sorry he ever got
11 involved. The other one is not a greedy person, he
12 just got sucked up into what turned out to be a bad
13 deal. Neither of them are bad people. But, one is
14 a very well-known elected official, and the other
15 one is a very well-known business person.
16 COMMISSIONER PINES: Um -hum.
i
17 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: So, I think that, if we
18 made a good faith, fair offer, they would take it.
19 COMMISSIONER BATES: I agree. But, what is
20 that fair number?
21 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Yes. That's what we need
22 to figure out.
23 COMMISSIONER BATES: Somewhere between five and
24 six?
25 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Do you agree with that?
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1 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: No, I agree. It's got
2 to be five to six.
3 MR. MANTZARIS: I don't know. You threw out --
4 you thought, $500,000. Are you talking about,
5 total, $500,000, land, plus attorneys' fees?
6 MR. NOAH: I think, if you got that, that would
7 be a very good settlement. If you get it.
8 MR. MANTZARIS: Okay. So -- so, I mean, we
9 would have to circle back with the League and find
10 out what the League is willing to contribute towards
11 a settlement like that, with the understanding that
12 that would probably be something that, if we could
13 convince them to take, we'd all say, great.
14 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I think that's the course
15 that I could support.
16 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: Yeah.
17 MR. MANTZARIS: But, I -- I think, part of our
18 issue, right now, is, we need to -- one of the
19 frustrating pieces that we see is that the League
20 has said, generically, we will participate. But,
21 they really haven't said what that means.
22 MR. NOAH: Right. Yeah.
23 MR. MANTZARIS: So, we can get some numbers
24 together, and we can see it. And then, at least we
25 can come back to it, and say, well, the League said
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1 they're going to throw in $50,000, right? And, so,
2 if we want to go 500, the City is in for $450,000,
3 or more.
4 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Do you think there's any
5 chance of 50/50 between the League and the City?
6 MR. MANTZARIS: I -- I -- I don't know. I --
7 we had talked generically or generally about the
8 attorneys' fee amount, and there was a discussion
9 about whether the League would possibly -- possibly
10 absorb the attorneys' fee piece. But, that was sort
11 of a discussion that we kind of had when we were
12 talking about it. So. I don't know if that was
13 still -- and that was when the attorneys' fees were
14 probably at a lower level, too. So, I think, if we
15 could get the League up to that level, that would
16 kind of --
17 j COMMISSIONER PURVIS: It's only going to get
ii
18 worse. So, as far as I'm concerned, move forward.
19 COMMISSIONER BATES: We need to move forward on
I
20 this as quick as possible.
21 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Yep.
22 COMMISSIONER PINES: Yeah.
23 COMMISSIONER BATES: I don't want to wait
24 another two weeks, for our next Council meeting, to
25 have another --
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MR. MANTZARIS: Well, we don't necessarily have
to do it that way.
COMMISSIONER BATES: -- closed door.
MR. MANTZARIS: We've got a good -- I think
we've got a good read as to how the Council wants to
do it. We're going to have to -- while Doug's sort
of holding everything at bay, we're going to have to
work with the League and see what they -- what they
want to put on it. And then, I think we have an
understanding that the City Council would consider
putting --
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: We've got to cut our
losses.
COMMISSIONER PINES: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BATES: How much did you say they
were asking?
MR. NOAH: For -- for the property alone,
they're asking for -- I'm a little bit confused on
the number, myself. Because, when I did his math, I
didn't -- I came up with a number like $800,000.
But, what he -- what the expert concludes, from
their standpoint, is like a million -- I want to say
a million -three, or something like that. So, it's a
big number.
MAYOR MURRY: But, he tried to sell it for 80.
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1 MR. NOAH: And he was going to sell it for 80.
2 MAYOR MURRY: And couldn't sell it for 80.
3 MR. NOAH: Twice.
4 COMMISSIONER BATES: Would we be insulting
5 them, by 500? I mean, you mentioned 8- --
6 MR. MANTZARIS: Well, I would suggest doing
7 that. Because, we were at $30,000.
8 COMMISSIONER BATES: That was the original
9 offer? Okay.
10 MR. MANTZARIS: And, so, I think, if you -- I
11 think, if you could get -- and I'm not saying that
12 it would resolve for that. But, I think, if the
13 City, with the League, could put together a package
14 that's close to 500,000, I think that would get us
15 started to initiate discussions.
16 MR. NOAH: Yeah.
17 COMMISSIONER BATES: Okay.
18 MR. MANTZARIS: And that might move things to a
19 resolution. And we could always, you know, tie it
20 into that.
21 MAYOR MURRY: Yeah. Well, that covers, what,
22 300 for attorney fees and another two. I mean,
23 that's more than what it's worth.
24 MR. NOAH: I don't think they're walking away
25 from their attorneys' fees, right now. I can just
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1 tell you, from a layperson, you said $80,000. But,
2 from a layperson, when I walk by the property, the
3 first time I saw, it was hard to imagine that that
4 was worth a million dollars. But, I'm not in real
5 estate.
6 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: I don't know why. But,
7 I sort of think I remember, one of the parties,
8 whether it was Sprinkles, the night that he
9 addressed the Council, or whoever. But, $100,000
10 sticks in my mind as to what they paid for that
11 property.
12 COMMISSIONER PINES: I'm looking it up.
13 MR. NOAH: I thought he paid like $26,000. You
14 mean, Mr. Sprinkles, when he bought from Mantana?
15 MR. MANTZARIS: Mansella.
16 MR. NOAH: Mansella? I want to say it was like
17 $26,000, or something. It was way low.
18 COMMISSIONER PINES: It's low. Let me -- I'm
19 almost there.
20 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Why would he have two
21 other partners, for a $26,000 purchase?
22 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: That's a good question.
23 MR. MANTZARIS: Okay. So, I think we've
24 reached where we want to go. We're going to have to
25 work hard, and we wanted to make sure that you were
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1
aware of it. We mostly wanted
to make sure that you
2
understood the exposure piece,
and I think you
3
unfortunately do.
4
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: So,
this is never going
5
in front of a magistrate?
6
COMMISSIONER PINES: 27.5.
And then, a
7
quitclaim deed was done on it
in 2019. It's showing
8
they bought it in 2011 --
9
MR. NOAH: A quitclaim to
whom?
10
COMMISSIONER PINES: -- for
27.5.
11
MR. NOAH: Right, that's
for the 27.5.
12
COMMISSIONER PINES: And
a quitclaim deed --
13
MR. NOAH: To whom? Does
it say?
14
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: How
about to the two
15
investors?
16
COMMISSIONER
PINES:
I hate doing this on my
17
phone. It's so small.
18
MR. NOAH: I
wish I
had better news. I'm
19
sorry.
20
MAYOR MURRY:
It is
what it is.
21
COMMISSIONER
PURVIS:
It is what it is, you're
22
right.
23 COMMISSIONER BATES: What kind of time frame do
24 you think we're on, for this attorney getting paid?
25 MR. NOAH: That's what you're trying to turn
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1 off.
2 COMMISSIONER BATES: Right.
3 MR. NOAH: Right now, he did a public records
4 ad request on the City, where we just provided him,
5 I don't know how many documents it is. It's like
6 he's reinventing the wheel and redoing the learning
7 curve. And, so, I know he's in his office reading
8 paper all the time. So, you're right, time is of
9 the essence. And to get that meter shut down, if we
10 want to do this, we want to do it fairly quickly.
11 MAYOR MURRY: As quick as possible.
12 MR. NOAH: It may take a little bit of time to
13 work things out through the League. I know that
14 there's a hierarchal process that they have to
15 follow, too, to get authority.
16 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Sure.
17 MR. NOAH: I don't know exactly what it is.
18 But, Dan, we'll have to work on it.
19 MR. MANTZARIS: I'm just going to call and ask.
20 COMMISSIONER ENTSUAH: That's the quickest way
21 to do it.
22 COMMISSIONER PURVIS: Well, I do know that Doug
23 is absolutely right. There is a pecking order, when
24 you start talking about that kind of money, in any
25 insurance company.
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MR. NOAH: Right.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: And it's not some
$75,000-a-year adjuster that makes the decision.
It's probably a Senior Vice -President --
COMMISSIONER PINES: Right.
COMMISSIONER PURVIS: -- or the President.
MR. NOAH: It's a committee, actually, that --
MR. MANTZARIS: Okay. Anything else?
MAYOR MURRY: Do you need anything else?
MR. MANTZARIS: No, I think I got enough
directions. I appreciate it very much.
MAYOR MURRY: You got enough directions, which
way to go?
MR. MANTZARIS: All right. So, we're
concluded. We're going to walk out and we're not
talk to each other about this stuff, right?
MR. NOAH: Nice meeting you folks.
COURT REPORTER: Do you want me to type these?
MR. MANTZARIS: I need both of them, yes.
COURT REPORTER: Both of them? Okay. Thank
you.
(The closed session concluded at 9:52 p.m.)
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Page 49
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF ORANGE )
I, Diane C. Roberts, Notary Public, State of
Florida, was authorized to and did stenographically
report the foregoing proceedings, and that the
transcript, Pages 3 through 48, is a true and accurate
record of my stenographic notes.
I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, or
employee, or attorney, or counsel of any of the parties,
nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
Dated this loth day of November 2021.
)taia C
Rgtti�--
Diane C. Roberts, FPR
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& 2:3
1
1 1:3
100 16:24
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26:24 36:15 45:9
loth 49:17
12 12:13 21:17
1200 2:3
150 39:19
1920's 7:21
1st 1:15
2
2 1:4
20 12:4 18:4
20,000 39:1
201 2:3
2011 5:8 46:8
2017 6:23 10:19
20:10,12
2019 46:7
2021 1:12 20:12
49:17
22778 49:20
230 36:18 38:13
230,000 13:8
240 36:18 38:13
250 35:7 40:7
26 1:12
26,000 45:13,17,21
27.5. 46:6,10,11
3
3 49:9
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44:7
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38:15
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34712 1:16
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5
5 1:6
50 38:14
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44:14
560 23:9
6
600 36:25
685 1:15
7
759000 48:3
8
8 44:5
80 43:25 44:1,2
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45:1
800,000 43:20
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9:02 1:13
9:03 4:7
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cover 23:8 29:21
coverage 27:18,24
28:4,4 29:24 30:2
30:13 34:3,4
covered 30:9
covers 44:21
38:19
darren 24:7 25:16
darren's 24:9
25:14
date 1:12 12:19
13:7,24,25 34:10
dated 49:17
davidoff 1:918:21
23:21
day 39:10 49:17
deadline 14:10,11
deal 33:10,16 40:13
dealt 34:9
dean 2:3
debate 21:17
decide 14:2 31:6
35:3 36:3
i decided 10:15
14:20 32:10
Veritext Legal Solutions
Page 52
ecision 48:3
deed 5:20 6:16 46:7
46:12
deep 16:13
defend 14:19
defendant 34:25
defense 3:10 30:15
30:19 1
degree 22:6
demo'd 17:18
demonstrate 9:11
i denied 27:21,23
denies 8:2
depend 19:5
depicted 8:13,15
12:3
depiction 5:25
description 11:12
descriptions 11:13
design 25:20
designated 7:19
designs 23:17,19
detail 16:12 28:21
details 30:20
determine 12:13
13:3,17 21:18
determining 19:23
developed 6:12
development 7:5
19:15
diane 1:17 49:6,21
dice 31:18
difference 37:24
39:20
different 5:2 9:25
10:22 18:19 20:13
21:2 27:2 30:25
differentiates 29:3
dimensions 21:24
22:1,4
800-726-7007 305-376-8800
[direction - fl]
direction 29:7
directions 5:12
48:11,12
directly 6:20 30:22
discussing 14:17
discussion 3:3 4:24
42:8,11
discussions 44:15
dispute 5:16 6:4
14:13 16:13 29.13
disputed 6:7 9:14
disputes 12:17
district 19:2,15
20:21 21:5
dnoah 2:4
doah 36:1
documents 47:5
doing 35:8,16 44:6
46:16
dollar 26:10,14
dollars 12:2515:21
45:4
domain 11:412:12
13:10 28:15,19
29:20,21 31:25
32:21,24 36:20
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donut 21:8
door 43:3
doubts 23:3
doug 3:10,19,24
32:22 33:25 34:8
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doug's 3:18 33:17
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douglas 2:2
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dreggors 13:4 20:2
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dried 16:6
drive 18:1
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due 13:3
duplex 17:1719:19
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duplexes
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easement 18:13
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employee 49:13,14
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encroaching 7:8
encroachment 12:3
27:6,6
ended 36:5
enforcement 9:6
17:15
english 4:14
enters 28:14
entertain 4:24
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facts 10:16
entitled 10:813:6
fair 40:18,20
entsuah 1:5 32:19
fairly 47:10
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essence 47:9
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fee 36:22,25 42:8
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estimation 15:6
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everybody 4:4 39:3
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everybody's 4:18
fees 13:7,7 36:6,16
evidence 10:4,4,6
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38:17,20,24 40:7
exactly 12:10 27:20
41:5 42:13 44:22
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existed 16:23
feet 18:4 20:16,16
expense 3:6
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find 11:18,20 41:9
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finding 10:20 19:1
18:24,24 19:5,9,13
findings 11:2
26:22 27:12 30:18
finished 4:13
46:2
firm 34:1
extended 34:24
first 8:11,12,22
extends 6:5
11:4 12:8 13:17
eyeballed 16:19
19:4 21:5,20 45:3
eyes 39:25
five 10:2215:8
f 22:23 25:24 40:23
f 1:8 41:2
fact 8:6 fl 2:4
Veritext Legal Solutions
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[floor - insurance]
floor 1:15 25:11
floors 21:13 22:17
22:18 24:23,24
26:5,6
florida 1:16,17
9:16 49:3,7
folks 26:4 36:21
48:17
follow 4:19 5:2
22:24 47:15
follows 9:21
foot 12:4 26:11,15
foregoing 49:8
form 10:2
formalistic 9:9
format 22:24
forth 26:12 37:6
forward 5:6 6:23
36:4 42:18,19
four 6:2 10:22
21:12 22:17,18
26:5
fourplex 22:7
fpr 49:21
frame 46:23
free 4:24
friend 6:11,11
frivolousness 15:7
front 11:10 16:18
39:25 46:5
frustrating 41:19
full 16:3,4
funds 33:3,8,9
further 17:16
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gain 12:5 31:5
geared 13:18,20
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generally 42:7
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getting 13:15 46:24
give 4:2 19:25
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given 10:20 23:12
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gives 14:1,18
giving 26:15
go 4:8,11 5:6 8:17
11:5,7,10 13 :22,23
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31:15 32:25 33:1
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goes 6:13 7:18
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going 3:8,24 4:23
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18:8,10,25 19:21
20:1,1,2,18,24 21:4
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hires 28:22
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great 41:13
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guess 16:2217:23
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guy 20:12
guys 24:15
h
half 22:9 37:12
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hand 27:17
handling 3:21,25
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happening 31:17
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he'll 13:5 20:3
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head 39:15
hear 12:13
heard 18:18 23:12
I
23:16
hearing 13:1,20,22
j 13:24,2514:23
heavy 31:8
heck 33:13
height 21:11
help 37:16
helps 7:6
hey 30:17
hierarchal 47:14
highest 12:1619:17
20:22
Veritext Legal Solutions
honest 18:17 27:16
honestly 39:16
hook 36:5
hour 36:25
hourly 36:25
house 17:15,16,18
housing 8:25
huge 11:24 22:20
hum 12:22 18:7
22:3 24:25 40:5,16
i
idea 26:6 38:10
imagine 33:5 45:3
immediate 13:25
important 5:18
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37:9,10
including 29:5
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increase 36:24
individuals 40:10
inflates 20:11,12
information 25:6
29:18
ingress 5:2411:21
initially 12:21
initiate 44:15
ins 4:1
installed 22:19
insulting 44:4
insurance 28:6
32:7 47:25
800-726-7007 305-376-8800
[interacting - marvin]
interacting 37:5
interest 28:23
interested 34:23
49:16
interpreted 15:11
interrupt 4:25
inverse 10:2411:1
30:5
investor 6:10 40:4
investors 46:15
involved 27:11
32:8 40:11
issue 10:15 14:17
14:19 15:6 19:13
21:3 26:8,9 27:5
28:17 41:18
issued 9:3,5
issuing 9:4
it'll 15:3
j
jay 13:13,14 37:2
jim 1:4
job 7:25 33:18
john 3:21
johnson's 24:7
25:16
judge 10:5,6,12,12
11:11 38:24
judge's 10:2019:1
judgment 10:3,8
13:9 36:18
july 35:13
jump 27:8
jumping 37:6
jurisdictions 7:18
jurors 12:13
jury 21:17
k
keep 20:22
keeping 37:6
kind 6:17 8:19 9:21
10:5,25 11:18 15:1
18:11 19:16 21:8
22:24 23:2 27:23
29:13 30:8 31:4
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21:8,24 22:21
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1
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large 13:5 32:1
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lawton 2:3
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lawyers
layperson
lead 4:1
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31:14,22 33:20,23
35:1 39:11 41:9,10
41:19,25 42:5,9,15
43:8 44:13 47:13
league's 14:6 29:24
learning 47:6
leaves 38:4
legal 8:10,12,20,22
9:16 10:22
letting 30:9
level 25:9 42:14,15
levels 31:1
liability 14:19,20
15:15 18:24
lies 11:13
line 7:9 11:21 34:5
lines 28:1,8
literally 16:21
litigation 1:13:5,6
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little 7:1711:16
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local 7:18
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lot 3:16 5:7 6:5
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lots 5:14 7:8 27:13
low 35:20 36:16
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lowball 37:11
lower 26:4 42:14
loyalties 29:2
lumber 23:20
in
ma'am 18:6
magistrate 46:5
maintenance 22:19
making 10:918:2
manager 1:9
mansella 45:15,16
mantana 45:14
mantzaris 1:8 3:3
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38:8 39:9 40:2 41:3
41:8,17,23 42:6
43 :1,4 44:6,10,18
45:15,23 47:19
48: 8,10,14,19
map 5:18,21,22
8:12 12:4
marketplace 24:10
24:11
markets 20:13
marvin 12:21
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800-726-7007 305-376-8800
[math - original]
math 43:19
matter 3:710:8
matters 4:16
mayor 1:715:24
17:10,16 22:13
24:10 35:9 39:7,14
39:20 43:25 44:2
44:21 46:20 47:11
48:9,12
mean 14:5 22:1
41:8 44:5,22 45:14
meaning 11:23
means 11:2213:13
41:21
mediation 32:25
33:1 34:12,24
mediations 34:10
meeting 3:4 4:5
26:21 27:14 39:8
42:24 48:17
meetings 14:2
meets 11:11
mentioned 16:16
44:5
messes 20:9
messing 26:19
meter 14:4,5,6
31:10 47:9
method 19:22
mexican 35:12
michele 1:615:19
35:8
million 12:2515:21
16:2,10 20:19
22:23 25:24,24,24
26:24 35:22,22,25
36:1,10 37:12
39:13,18 43:22,23
45:4
mind 20:22 45:10
minneola 5:10,11
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16:20 21:13
minute 13:19 29:20
misunderstanding
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moment 20:14
money 20:3 34:14
34:15 35:2,2 47:24
montrose 1:15
23:25 24:5,21
monument 8:17
morgan 2:3
motion 10:2
motions 10:9
move 5:6 9:19
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42:18,19 44:18
moved 12:7 18:16
multiplier 37:1
murry 1:715:24
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44:21 46:20 47:11
48:9,12
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n 2:1 3:1
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names 4:4
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48:9,19
negotiating 15:1
neighborhood
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never 7:11 8:16
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new 13:9 19:15
22:16
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nice 7:5 48:17
night 45:8
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28:12 29:10 30:12
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36:8,11 38:12,20
39:10 41:6,22
43:17 44:1,3,16,24
45:13,16 46:9,11
46:13,18,25 47:3
47:12,17 48:1,7,17
north 12:2516:1,9
20:19 35:24 36:1
notary 49:6
notes 4:14 49:10
notice 14:8
november 49:17
nuances 30:4
number 13:519:12
20:18,18 21:15
22:22 23:8 26:16
34:8 35:7,21 40:20
43:19,20,24
numbers 22:20
41:23
0
o 3:1
objections 5:5
Veritext Legal Solutions
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obstruction 18:15
obviously 4:24
32:15 33:17
occasions 27:2
occurred 9:13
october 1:12
offense 36:2
offer 33:2134:13
34:24 36:13,14
37:22,23 38:3
40:18 44:9
offered 34:17
office 47:7
official 39:23 40:14
offing 28:16
offset 11:24
okay 3:3,23 4:10
5:5,17 6:3,8,20,24
11:4,25 15:13 17:1
17:8 18:8,24 19:19
19:22 20:8,19,21
24:11,15 25:3,25
27:23 28:1,2,22,23
29:3,18,24 30:14
37:25 40:3,6 41:8
44:9,17 45:23 48:8
48:20
old 27:6
once 9:7,22,23
10:17 23:5 29:1
39:25 40:1
ongoing 3:7
opening 16:17
opportunities
22:15
orange 49:4
order 14:1415:7,7
23:7 47:23
orient 5:8
original 44:8
800-726-7007 305-376-8800
[orlando - pump]
orlando
outs 4:2
outside
overly 7
overrule
overrule
overturn
owned 7:118:3,4
owner 32:13
owners 9:19
ownership 9:23
10:1
owns 6:5 7:16 8:8
8:10,18 9:11 10:19
p
p 2:1,1 3:1
p.a. 2:3
p.m. 1:13,13 48:22
package 44:13
pages 15:8 49:9
paid 28:5 45:10,13
46:24
paper 47:8
parcels 6:24
parking 25:12,14
part 6:4 20:21 32:4
32:5 33:6 41:17
participate 33:20
41:20
particular 5:21
9:12,18
particularly 6.10
parties 10:111:10
13:16,22 14:13
45:7 49:13,14
partners 3:19 40:4
45:21
pattern 8:6,23
pay 29:11 30:14,18
30:19 32:4,13
33:24 36:6
d
2:4 25:6 paying 3
39:3
9:14 pecking
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29:23 pending
19:2 people 2
ed 15:3,3 40:13
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47:23
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percent 16:24
permits 9:2,3,4
person 19:20 20:3
38:13,23 40:11,15
phone 35:10 46:17
piece 6:1142:10
46:2
pieces 41:19
pine 2:3
pines 1:615:20
16:3,6,9 17:17 18:3
18:7 21:22 22:3,8
24:8,12,20 25:1,3
25:22 35:10,19
38:7,18 39:5 40:16
42:22 43:14 45:12
45:18 46:6,10912
46:16 48:5
place 13:25
plaintiff 7:2410:23
32:24 34:9
plaintiffs 10:11
12:18
plaintiffs 12:21
plan 11:5
planning 1:15
plat 7:21
plug 31:22
plus 23:17 25:20
38:2 41:5
point 6:25 7:3,4,11
7:12 15:2 17:25
18:1 23:10,12,23
24:4 25:8 28:10
36:4 39:4
pointed 32:22
pointing 29:8
policy 30:8
portion 15:23,24
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position 9:1515:1
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positions 9:25
possible 3:6 42:20
47:11
possibly 33:8 42:9
42:9
posture 29:25
30:10 31:3
potential 16:22
potentially 7:8 34:5
practical 8:9
practice 8:23
practices 8:219:13
pragmatic 23:2
pre 24:19
preserved 28:17
president 48:4,6
pretty 14:22 21:25
22:1 36:17 38:4
price 25:23 31:8
prices 20:12,13
26:3,4
prior 16:17 22:12
22:14,15 27:14
private 8:24
probably 3:15
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36:20 37:15
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process 11:3 47:14
professional 1:17
progress 11:7,8
progression 4:23
project 23:10,13
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promise 16:14
30:17
property 5:12,13
5:16,20,23 6:1,18
6:21,22 7:16,22 8:2
8:3,11,16,24 9:1,6
9:19,20,21 10:17
10:19,21 11:2,13
11:14,20,22,23
15:22 16:4,4,7,8,18
17:19 18:4 19:11
19:16,17 20:5,10
21:8,9,19,23 23 :11
24:5 25:17 27:1
28:14 32:11,13,13
32:14 33:6 35:11
35:12,14 37:11
43:17 45:2,11
prove 14:25 39:21
provide 4:2019:10
provided 4:15 47:4
public 6:16 29:9
47:3 49:6
puffing 35:5
pull 17:11 31:22
pulled 16:18,21
17:3,6
pulling 20:7
pulls 6:13
pump 12:6,618:14
19:6,10
Veritext Legal Solutions
800-726-7007 305-376-8800
[purchase - see]
purchase 23:18
45:21
purchased 5:19
6:10
purchases 6:1
purchasing 16:17
purvis 1:4 3:11,13
3:16,23 15:18
16:16 17:1,4,8,13
17:20,23 18:20
22:5,9 23:20,22,25
24:7,11 25 :12,16
27:8,10 28:2,10
30:11,24 31:16,20
33:3,13 34:17 35:7
37:25 38:4 39:2,13
39:18,22 40:3,6,17
40:21,25 41:14
42:4,17,21 43 :12
45:6,20 46:4,14,21
47:16,22 48:2,6
puryear 12:21,24
19:21 22:25
push 36:3
put 10:6,13,23
12:24 13:5,24
18:10 20:8 21:11
21:14,19 22:22
30:15 34:7 43:9
44:13
puts 10:4 29:12
putting 13:14
26:19 43:11
quadplex 19:19,22
20:17
quadplexes 26:12
question 15:18,20
16:15 21:23 27:19
28:11 45:22
questions 5:315:14
redoing 47:6
quick 21:22 42:20
reduce 19:9
47:11
reinventing 47:6
quickest 47:20
relative 49:12,14
quickly 32:23
reliction 9:2210:15
47:10
relied 38:24
quitclaim 46:7,9,12
remainder 26:18
quite 18:18 38:21
1 remains 11:15
r
remember 3:21
r 2:1 3:1
range 36:18 38:13
38:15 39:1
rate 22:2129:10
raw 23 :14,15,17
25:20
reached 45:24
read 30:7 43:5
reading 47:7
ready 13:15,23
real 7:5 20:3 34:15
45:4
realize 34:1
really 8:11 10:14
10:14 11:3 31:17
34:23 36:16 39:23
41:21
realm 28:14
reason 8:917:13
reasonableness
20:23
reasons 5:19 8:10
8:12
receded 10:17,18
received 38:23
record 4:8,11 10:4
10:6 39:23 49:10
records 6:16 47:3
recounted 10:12
recounting 10:13
recreating 33:11
45:7
repetitive 10:25
report 49:8
reported 1:17
reporter 1:17 4:7,9
4:12 24:2 48:18,20
49:1
reports 38:23
represent 28:23,24
29:4,14
representation
3:20
representing 3:19
represents 29:5
request 47:4
require 32:25
reservations 30:16
residential 35:14
resolution 33:21
44:19
resolve 44:12
respect 19:1
respectful 4:18
response 27:20
restaurant 35:13
restrictions 6:17
retained 13:1
richard 13:4
right 5 :3,12,12 7:
8:5 14:13,17 15:6
15:13 19:8,16
23:11,24 24:5
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25:15 26:13 28:12
28:16 33:17 34:5
34:16 36:16 38:18
39:9 41:18,22 42:1
44:25 46:11,22
47:2,3,8,23 48:1,5
48:14,16
rights 14:1128:16
30:17
ring 24:6
ringers 2:3
ripe 33:20
1 risks 36:23
roadway 8:18,19
roberts 1:17 49:6
49:21
roll 31:17
room 1:15 4:13
35:4
ruled 14:15
ruling 4:22 28:13
run 3:25 40:9
running 14:4 37:7
runs 29:2
s
s 2:1 3:1
salary 30:14
sale 25:23
sales 27:3
saw 15:9 45:3
saying 12:19 26:23
26:24 27:17 44:11
says 6:5,6 7:11 8:14
13:23 19:24 26:17
scott 1:918:20
seasoned 13:11
9 seat 1:3,4,5,6
second 12:1127:8
29:6,7
see 5:9 6:17,24 7:7
15:13 17:2 21:13
800-726-7007 305-376-8800
[see - things]
35:2 41:19,24 43:8
seeing 5:5 37:5
sell 25:19 27:1,2
43:25 44:1,2
selling 23:13 24:19
senior 48:4
sense 14:24
session 1:1 3:5,12
48:22
set 20:14 31:18
settle 31:8
settlement 3:6 33:2
33:4,21 41:7,11
shade 27:14
shape 28:5
shock 21:21
showed 10:19
26:14
showing 5:217:10
46:7
shows 5:23
shut 47:9
sides 10:3
sidetracked 37:9
signature 49:20
significant 5:22
signs 6:15
sir 38:8
situation 29:13
31:12
six 25:24 40:24
41:2
size 21:23 35:11
small 13:13,14 22:1
22:14 46:17
small's 37:2
smart 20:11
soften 39:11
sold 26:3 35:13
somebody 31:7
800-726-7007
r somewhat 19:5 stenographically
sophist 7:1 49:7
sophisticated 6:10
6:19
sorry 7:4 37:9
40:10 46:19
sort 12:6 28:9
33:24 42:10 43:6
45:7
sound 11:16
sounds 15:16 31:12
source 28:24
south 23:24
speak 36:3
special 7:14,15,23
speculate 27:23
speculation 26:2
speech 29:1
split 37:17
sprinkles 1:13:8,9
5:7,19 6:5,9 8:7 9:9
10:18 11:15 27:1
27:15,16 39:24
45:8,14
square 20:16,16
26:11,15
standard 12:15
standing 9:10
standpoint 6:9 8:7
43:22
start 19:4 47:24
started 44:15
starting 4:6
starts 9:18
state 7:16 8:2,4 9:7
49:3,6
state's 8:4
status 4:2,2111:6
13:16
stenographic 49:10
step 11:4
stephen 1:13:9
sticker 21:21
sticks 45:10
stormwater 6:25
32:1 33:7,9
story 22:10
street 1:15 2:3 5:11
5 :24 6:14,15 9:24
16:20 17:3,5 23:25
24:5
strength 15:9
strict 14:9
structure 8:25 9:1
stuff 20:14 39:6
48:16
subject 6:119:25
subrogation 28:8
substantial 34:13
sucked 40:12
suggest 44:6
suggests 31:4
suit 9:10
suite 2:3
summary 10:3 13:9
36:18
support 41:15
supreme 6:2
sure 16:24 18:16,18
18:21 22:5 27:9
30:24 38:21,25
39:5 45:25 46:1
47:16
surrounding 19:16
surveying 8:21
surveyor 8:14,20
suspect 40:8
swear 12:12
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t
t 2:2
tag 31:8
take 13:10,20,25
21:19 23:4,5 34:9
36:2 40:9,18 41:13
47:12
taken 1:12 3:20
11:14,20 12:10
15:23,24 17:25
18:9 20:5,10 28:14
29:16,19 30:10
36:24
takes 23:1,2
talk 3:5,8 7:13
13:19 15:13 24:15
30:12 34:6 48:16
talked 42:7
talking 5:13 6:23
24:2,8,23 25:5 41:4
42:12 47:24
tallahassee 8:1,1,2
tangent 28:22
technical 8:19
11:12
tell 6:20 10:16 12:5
12:18 16:13 29:10
29:11 33:23 34:21
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telling 20:24
testimony 27:16
thank 48:20
theirs 21:20
theories 10:23
theory 31:5
thing 12:8,11 14:1
19:4 29:3 37:10
things 9:1211:6
12:17 18:19 20:25
21:14 23:7 36:23
44:18 47:13
305-376-8800
[think - worst]
think 3:11,14 7:24
8:8 14:18,22 16:19
17:6,9,10,20 24:8
24:22 25:10 26:1
28:5,6 30:2,8 31:7
31:7,9,9 33:16
34:10 36:12 37:3,8
37:12,18 38:12,12
38:14 39:9,10,22
39:24,25 40:17
41:6,14,17 42:4,14
43:4,9 44:10,11,12
44:14,24 45:7,23
46:2,24 48:10
thinking 28:3
39:16 40:7
thinks 26:22
third 34:23
thought 24:13,17
25:8 31:12 41:4
45:13
three 8:1122:9
24:23,24 25:9,9,10
26:5 43:23
threw 19:20 41:3
throw 28:2135:20
37:22 42:1
throwing 15:21
tie 44:19
tim 1:7
time 1:13 3:18 4:5
4:7,11,19,25 7:20
9:4 12:25 13:8,17
13:21 14:1,4,18,21
24:3 32:9 45:3
46:23 47:8,8,12
timeline 20:9
times 3:4 27:2
timothy 1:3
title 27:4,10,18
today 10:7 26:21
told 6:12 8:8 9:13
11:6 13:2 17:2,6
30:1
top 21:13
toss 15:12
tossed 40:6
total 41:5
transcribed 4:14
transcript 49:9
treat 37:20
treated 8:24
tremendous 13:15
trespass 10:24 30:7
30:8
trial 10:5 14:23
37:23
tried 27:1,2 43:25
true 18:2 37:21
49:9
try 31:8 32:15,25
33:1
trying 31:6 32:23
35:11 46:25
turn 46:25
turned 40:12
turns 11:2
twice 29:144:3
two 3:14 5:14 6:24
8:9 10:25 21:11
25:10 27:1 34:10
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twofold 8:22
type 24:19 48:18
typically 4.19
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31:17 3
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u
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Wanted 45:25 46:1
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Wanting 35:22
underneath 25:13
wants 43:5
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understand 25:18
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walk 45:2 48:15
walking 44:24
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west 7:20 8:15
wheel 47:6
willing 33:22 34:5
41:10
win 31:11
window 33:24
wish 26:15 46:18
wondering 22:3
word 31:2
'words 32:9
work 4:25 13:15
30:21 32:2,21 33:1
34:1 38:22 43:8
45:25 47:13,18
worked 30:20
works 9:17 37:16
worse 42:18
worst 26:22
800-726-7007 305-376-8800
[worth - zoning]
worth 37:12,13
44:23 45:4
wrong 8:13 19:14
39:21
y
yard 23:20
yeah 14:24 17:6
22:8 25:1,22 28:12
30:12 35:17 36:11
38:3 41:16,22
42:22 43:14 44:16
44:21
year 48:3
yellow 5:14
yep 42:21
z
zoned 19:17
zoning 21:5 22:16
23:19
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800-726-7007 305-376-8800
FLORIDA RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE
Rule 1.310
(e) Witness Review. If the testimony is
transcribed, the transcript shall be furnished to
the witness for examination and shall be read to or
by the witness unless the examination and reading
are waived by the witness and by the parties. Any
changes in form or substance that the witness wants
to make shall be listed in writing by the officer
with a statement of the reasons given by the
witness for making the changes. The changes shall
be attached to the transcript. It shall then be
signed by the witness unless the parties waived the
signing or the witness is ill, cannot be found, or
refuses to sign. If the transcript is not signed by
the witness within a reasonable time after it is
furnished to the witness, the officer shall sign
the transcript and state on the transcript the
waiver, illness, absence of the witness, or refusal
to sign with any reasons given therefor. The
deposition may then be used as fully as though
signed unless the court holds that the reasons
given for the refusal to sign require rejection of
the deposition wholly or partly, on motion under
rule 1.330(d)(4).
DISCLAIMER: THE FOREGOING CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES
ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.
THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF APRIL 1,
2019. PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE STATE RULES
OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION.
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