04-10-1973 Regualr Meeting
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REGULAR MEETING
A Regular Meeting of the City Council of the City of Clermont was held in the Council
Chambers on Tuesday, April 10, 1973. The meeting was called to order at 7:30 P.M.
by Mayor Don E. Smith with the following members present: Councilmen Schroede1, Byrd,
Beals and Smoak. Other officials present were: City Manager Hopkins, City Attorney
Vason, Director of Community Services Smythe, Director of Public Utilities Asbury,
City Clerk Carroll and Chief of Police Tynda1. Other present were: Messrs. Dean
Scott, Henry Czech and Francis Loomis. A delegation of DeMo1ay members was present
as well as representatives of the Orlando Sentinel and the local Press.
The Invocation was given by Councilman Byrd. "0ur heavenly Father we pray for
guidance,w1sdom and inspiration as we consider the business of the City of Clermont.
Give us good health, our daily bread and forgive us of our sins, in Jesus name we
pray, Amen."
The Pledge of Allegiance was repeated in unison by those present. The Minutes of the
Meeting held on March 27, 1973 were approved as written.
Visitors with Business
Messrs. W. L. Williams and Jim Westbrook of Michae1s-Stiggins, Inc.
Williams - "This is of course on Edgewood about the pressure line and the pumping
station and a gravity flow line-the only thing that welre in question about is the
gravity flow line-at the time we were going to put in a small line up there and a small
station and the city thought it would be to their advantage and to everybody else
to increase the size and to take in the whole area, which I agreed withwho1ehearted1y
because it was cheaper at that time and the maintenance would be a lot less-so we agreed
with the city to pay what it would cost us to install our system and the city picked
up the balance of this to install a larger system-a larger line and all the facilities
to it-we did not get into the installation of it because we thogght that since we paid
for the job the city would take all the iniative on it-we did not have the plans to
approve a1though~ the city had our plans and they were approved. Now the line came
up with a 30" cover on it meaning it was 30" in the ground-we had as much as a 2
and 3 foot cut in some areas there, meaning that your line was either out of the ground
or was on top of the ground-there again you had our plans to check and make sure
that they did coincide with this-now we. did not have your plans and todate we still
have nothing that tells what you put in there which was really immaterial to us as it was
90;~to belong to you and we paid for the job-so we went back and had this line lowered
at a cost of $1041.00, I think it was, a little over $1,000-$1921.40. We had the
heavy equipment in there at the time and we had to go ahead and get it done-we had it
done over a weekend which was a Saturday, Sunday and Monday to get it done and since we
did pay for a job, or at least we feel that we paid to have a job done, we feel that
we should be reimbursed for that amount of money."
Westbrook - "Mr. Will iams you said that it was a gravity 1 ine, I believe that it
was a pressure line-there had been discussion with your engineer and you for some time
with preliminary plans that did not show grading plans-the first letter that I have in
my file is dated June 16th of 1972 to the city and at what time the city actually got
it and what time I actually got it- I don't know, but on June 19th this line was
installed and it's our feeling that we didn't have sufficient knowledge of your cuts
at that time to have lowered it-now I regret that it happened-I wish it hadn't, but
I do not feel that itls the cityls responsibility nor Michaels-Stiggins to pay for
it."
Williams - "Some months after that when you did come up with a final plan-in other words
they were completed-then at that time should you not have picked up that 30 cut when we
were showing more than a 30 inch cut and your line was at 30 inches?"
Westbrook;- "No, you should have had your engineers-our line, or the city's lines,
was there - your engineers should have picked that Up."
Williams - "We still do not have anything showing that, to the best of my knowledge-but
it did not give us any depths of the line - still doesn't - we have a copy of it -
still does not give us a depth.
Westbrook -"For a force main, tho /I'
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Williams UBut how could you put the regulations - say - that there will be a 30 inch
cover-how could you put a street in where- that you didn't have to either cut or fi1l-
I mean this is just got to be-just don't run a street right down a piece of property-
now if we cut 2 inches we will be breaking regulations right there at any point and
we are sure it wouldn't fill on top of the hill, like that one out there - we would
have to cut through II
Westbrook: If we had been totally aware';of the situation we would have informed
Bumby & Stimpson to lower it - how far did they lower it, two feet?
Will iams - "A good two feet. II
Westbrook - "They would have charged money for this - probably not this much-but in
view of the timing."
Williams: - "I was with your representative - forget his name now - we were at the
trailer at Bumby & Stimpson - I spent all day one day-finally they talked to Mr. Groo
and he said go ahead and they would give us a letter the first of the week authorizing
us to do that. I called two different times after that for this letter and I have
not received it as yet. Now Mr. Groo is the one who talked to them on the phone, up
here - I believe he also talked to Bob one time that day - one day when I was over there~
Westbrook -Authorizing what, Mr. Williams?"
Williams -liTo lower this 1ine"
Westbrook - "But not authorizing payment."
Wi 11 iams -"We11 if you are authorized to do something at automatically-in other
words?
Westbrook: liThe line belonged to the city - it had to be lowered and you had to have
authorization" .
Williams: "I could have taken that up with Mr. Hopkins - I didnlt have to go thru
engineering firm to get that, I donlt believe."
Westbrook - "I think youlre correct."
Williams - The point was that it had - in other words - with my heavy equipment
sitting out there by the hour - I had to get it done over the weekend."
Westbrook -"What I want to say, on June 16th a letter addressed to Mr. Hopkins is
first correspondence - and now long it took me to get that letter - around eight days,
I don't know but the construction began on the 19th. I think timing is such that
we didn't know your cuts."
Williams - Well even at that, when we did submit our cuts - now you did come back
with several changes on the plans which we had to make - now donlt you think that
you could have given us that at that time."
Westbrook - I think your engineers, knowing that we were going to put this in should
have advised us and the city that this line needs to be so deep and then we would have
gone to the contractor and if it was two feet lower, then he would have charged, not
this much, I don't think.1I
Williams - "I caught this over a'weekend and we had to pay the extra - we still feel
if we pay - in this case we feel that we more or less made a contract with the city and
that they are more or less responsible to give us a job that has to work and of course
this could not work and since we did not approve their plans - they approved ours or you
did it I mean, using the plural there - we did not even have the authority to check your
p1an."
Westbrook - "Yes you did".
Williams - "But you had to check ours I mean that was the way it had to be."
Westbrook -"But our plans were planned originaltl'and with receipt of your first letter -
I have the original dated June 16th - now when Bob got it I donlt know and when I got
it, I donlt know, but it must be a few days - and then construction about the 19th.1I
J!llHaln~:' "Cou1d I call Mr. Heinmal'tn"l here? --- could you add anything to this."
Heinmann: I think the only thing that I can add is that - Mr. Westbrook made the comment
that our grade was not indicated and I think that on th~ plans that were delivered to you
for approval prior to the construction did have all that."
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Westbrook - On that date tho;. The first letter is dated June 16th. Here's a letter
of the 21st where I approved some things - the letter was dated 21st.
Will iams - nyou did throw some things back on us at that time, but what I'm say-
lng is that you should have also kicked back that on us at that time".
Westbrook - "No, sir. I don't think so. You should have called this to the city's
and our attention."
Williams - "But we had no idea that you had set it at 30 inches."
Westbrook - "We didnlt know your cuts."
Williams - "If you had cut any at all, it would have been too shallow."
Bea1s:.- "Mr. Mayor, rather than belabor these issues on an evening when we already have
a heavy agenda, I think we all are aware of what the dispute is if we have been readi~g
our correspondence - if there are no further questions by Council members, I think
the only issue right now is to decide whether or not we want to overide the City
Manager on his recommendation."
Smoak - "I agree, Mr. Beals, I think it was pretty fully outlined mn Mr. Hopkins letter
dated March 29th and it would seem to me that having approved it on April 11th--
construction not beginning~nti1 19th-there was a period of some 65 days or so in there-
it seems to me to be a lack of communication between the two of yo~ as to whose
fault it is - I donlt know, but it would seem to me that the city direct1yis less
involved than your construction company, Mr. Williams, or Michae1s-Stiggins-for my
part I agree with Mr. Beals-it's simply a question of whether we agree to disagree
with the City Managerls opinion and if a motion is in order-in viewdfthe'fa<:t;tha't '
according to the time table 1ayed out in Mr. Hopkins letter to you, Mr. Williams,
the sequence of events, particularly, if your improvement plans were dated June 16th
and they went by mail with a lapse of at least 24 to 48 hours, then construction started
on the 19th-evidently the order for construction has been given for some time-do you have
that date, Mr. Westbrook?"
Westbrook _" Our notes reflect that it began on the 19th"
Smoak - "No the question I asked was when did the construction company itself, who did
the actual work (Bumby and Stimpson)."
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Westbrook - "When they were instructed? I don't have that with me."
Mayor - "We1l it had to have been some time prior to that."
Smoak - "That's the point I was making, Mr. Mayor, considering what was done one day
and they started construction the next day - evidently your plans drawn up for the
installation of the increased capacity line were approved some time prior to receiving the
plans from Mr. Williams for the construction."
Heinmann - "Now remember these dates which are cited here in the 1ett"er and also on
the plans where the signatures were affixed-these were terminal dates-they had the p1 ans
quite some time before these dates-I mean they take some time to review- there is quite
a list of items which they asked us to change and iRdicating that the plans had a
pretty good review prior to the date that is- that has been initialed-his initialing
date and the time he reviewed the plan is something different."
Westbrook - August 1st is when I approved them"
Heinmann .. "Yes, but there was a prior"
Westbrook - liThe first letter addressed to the city was June 16th-prior to that we saw
preliminary plans, but not fina1s."
Heinmann - "Yes, but there was quite a list there which indicated they had had quite
a review and there was Obviously quite a lot of information available on grades and
sizes and this type of thing."
Westbrook - "I don't guess at them, Mr. Heinmann. There was existing topography and
street layout and tentative items - June 16th is the first contact with the - with a finished
set of p1ans."
Smoak - Mr. Mayor, if it be in order, I would suggest that'this be left up to the City
Manager or whoever was involved in the discussions and negogiations on that and I personally
would be in favor of following his recommendation."
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Hopkins - "Mr. Mayor may I make a couple of comments by way of clarification-We've
heard about June 16th- I've got the letter here the letter of transmittal on the
improvement plans from the developers engineers and it was dated June 15th which
was a Thursday. My memo indicates that the city received these improvement. plans on
June 16th which was a Friday, and on Monday, Bumby ~nd Stimpson started to work-
that the sequence of events after I received the improvement plans was before the
engineers for their review which took place and finally in Aygust were approved after
some changes were made by the deve10pers-I got a set of amended plans on July 13th,
so during this month or so period a number of things took p1ace-I think the problem
was that both the deve10pertwas putting together his design and our engineers was
putting together a design on that change to accommodate Edgewood at the same time and
the right hand didnlt know what the 1efthand was doing-now who should have exercised
the initiative" I'm not quite sure and it's very difficult to affix responsibility-
once that line was in the ground and we received the developers plan-it's their
contention that we should have brought it to their attention that that line was
in the ground and based on the existing grade and proposed grade as shown on the
plan-someone should have brought it to their attention-at the same token, they
knew it was going into the ground and possibly they should have taken the initiative
to determine where that line was and to design around it-since we had started off
our efforts in this direction back in April when we brought it to the attention
of the Council-11m taking the position that we were farther along possibly-and I
don't have any evidence to support this to any extent, but that we were farther along
with what we were doing than they, and it would have been easier for them to possibly
make the necessary changes-we were shooting a very difficult time frame with the
contractor in trying to get him squared away making necessary change orders and
this type of thing which complicated our end of the deal, but I'm just taking the
position as live indicated in my memorandum that the initiative should have been
exercised by the developer-the cityls engineers now could on with approving their
plans as to meeting the specifications of the subdivision ordinance and was not
under any legal, possibly moral, responsibility in my opinion to briDg that to their
attention and thatls what I base my reconmendation on"
Byrd - Bob on your memo shows a date of May 9th and says that Michae1s-Stiggins advised
Bumby and Stimpson that the plans were being drawn and that they would be forthcoming-
what plans are you talking about-is that the plans. for the lift station"
Hopkins - For the increase in the capacity of the lift station and the force main-
originally the lift station was to be on Grand Highway and it was relocated to be at
the bottom of Hillside Drive- made larger to accommodate Edgewood, the proposed
development, so, after Council approved the change and Bumby and Stimpson were advised
of this and told that plans would follow and they would be expected to do that
additional work II
Byrd - 1I0nce the line was in the ground, had you known it was only 30 inches below
the surface, would it have changed your grade at a11?"
Williams - "We11 we could possibly have stayed a little higher, but with the regulations
stating that you have a 30 inch cover on it we cou1dnlt take any off of it-ltwas
at 30 inches-we checked it at several places
Byrd - The point I'm making is, is that it's unfortunate, but the line was
already there and the fact that you didnlt know about it really didn't change anything
because you sti 11 woul d have cut whether you had known the 1 ine was there or not"
Williams -"We1l, yeah our plans showed the cut in .other.words to keep that - that
hillside is pretty rough anyhow-and we needed to cut it there rather than go and f.Jump
straight down on it-now they followed the terrain which was existing at that time
with an or~ng~rgro~e- they just come up and-like I say, they had a 30 inch cover-and it
was about as near as you could measure.30 inches all the way up-but if weld had to
cut any at all, we would have been down below the 30 inch regu1ation"
Smoak - "Mr. Williams in your estimate, not knowing the length of the line, but you
would have to drop that force main an additional two feet from the original installa-
tion, what would your estimate be of the additional cost on initial installation"
Heinmann - Generally the lines are - you know-layed out to be 0 to 6, 6 to 8, 8 to
10 cut, from the ground surface down to the invert of the pipe or the top of the pipe-
whichever way you specify and I think in this case it woulati~t have been a great deal
of differnece as long as it feel in the 0 to 6 category~.
Smoak - With your opinion on the rest of the work that has been done in Clermont,
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what would the difference have beent'
Westbrook - A force main is not 1ayed per foot of cut-itls 1ayed like a water 1ine-
I would estimate 50 cents a foot additional for that-thatls a guess.1I
Smoak - Bob do you have any idea of the length of that force main-the difference in
rerouting that we had to do to accommodate Edgewood?~
Hopkins I domt know just how much was actually 10weredll
Wi1ldams,- Well we lowered the whole thing down to the manhole which is down at the
bottom, so we lowered it somewhere between 600 and 800 feet.1I
Hopkins - Well itls a city block - say 600 feetll
Westbrook- IIYour gravity lines are closed 0 to 4, 4 to 6, 6 to 8, but not these
li nes II
Heinmann - Well we donlt plan to stand here and argue engineering before the Council
but many times you will go through a slight hill to keep a force main from having
a dip in it or something of this nature there are variances, I mean welre citing
general cases here, not all casesll
Smoak: - III was asking specifics on this particu1arll
Heinmann - II We 11 I mean the force main mayor may not follow the ground if you want to
make it so it doesnlt have a high spot or a low spot in it to trap air, well many
times you will go through a hill and I think it would have been specified-it could
have been in this casell
Mayor - IIIld like to ask one question if I may, 11m not an engineer-far from it, but
do I understand the situ~tion that the cityls installation by our construction company
was in prior to your making connection to itll
Westbrook~- IIYes, sirll
Williams - IIWe made no connection at all to their constructionll
Ma~or - IIWe11 it just seems to me that the engineers of your company knew that you
ha to go to a certain point with a certain line you would make an investigation to
see where that-where you were going to and where the line was that'you were gonna come
toll
Wi 11 i ams - Well we knew where it went to except for the depth of it II
Westbrook - Itls layed like a water line, Mayorll
Williams - Bumby and Stimpsonls man told me that they had no specific plan on this-
they had a penciled sketch1job to set it at 30 inches and that's what they did-they
apparently did not have an engineering plan on it eitherll
Westbrook= IIYes, Sir. They had p1ansll
Williams = Well they told they didnlt and your representative was there at the time
as I said, we spent all day out there in that trai1erll
Mayor III would suggest that we bring this to a head and, does one of the Council
wish to make a motion in order to dipose of this situation, I think it would be in orderll
Smoak - One more question if I might ask it, Mr. Mayor. You said you spoke with
a representative of Bumby and Stimpson and they said that they didn't have a set of
p 1 a ns . ·
Williams - IINo, not BumbY.~d Stimpson. Michae1s-Stiggins.1I
Smoak: I thought you said that Michae1s-Stiggins.representative was therell.
Williams - Well I spoke to the foreman for Bumby and Stimpson and Michaels-Stiggins
representative was there-they called him from Apopkall.
Smoak - IIBumby & Stimpson's representative said at that time they had just a pencil
sketch-and they had this 30 inch cover?-
Williams -IIRightll
Smoak - IIThis was prior to any construction?1I
Williams llOf ours, Yesll.
Smoak - 1I0f theirs?1I
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Williams - IIWe11 , when they put in it he told me that they had a penciled paper of
it and they did not have one that day because we were trying to find it-and they called
your man from Apopka and he was over here all day with us also.
Westbrook -IIThis was Don Phi11ipsll
Byrd - IIMr. Mayor I think that it's very unfortunate that communication wasnlt better
but I can't see that there is much the city can do to straighten it out- I move that
we support the position taken by the City Manager~
Mayor - IIYou've heard the motion, do I hear a second?1I
Schroede1 - 1111 second the motionll.
Mayor - IIItls been moved and seconded, do I hear any discussion? How do you vote
Mr. Schroed~l?
Schroede1 - III vote, Ayell
Mayor - IIMr. Byrd?1I
Byrd - II Aye
Mayor - IIMr. Beals?1I
Beals - IIAye:;1I
Mayor - I vote, Aye. Mr. Smoak?1I
Smoak - IIAyelI
Mayor - The Ayes have it and it is so orderedll
Smoak - I wonder Mr. Mayor if we might a~ Mr. Westbrook the status of the Operators
Manual while hels herell.
Westbrook - I knew you would-we have been informed that we better have it in by the
first of May-we are making every effort to comply with thatll
Smoak - Thank you, Sir. I donlt that thatls an unreasonable request in view of the
fact that the year and one half that Ilve sat on the Counci1-I know it's been asked
for a minimum of one yearll
Westbrook - IIWoul d you 12 ke~ to see one'"
Smoak - IINo, Sir. I wou1dnlt. I would like to Mr. Hopkins to see the one we needll.
Mayor -liThe only one we want to see is the one for us. Mrs. Nell Hunt? Would you
care to approach the Council now?1I
Mrs. Hunt - 11m really not well prepared, but I have been doing a little groundwork
on what I'm wantilltI hope everyone is a little familiar with the property which I
bought, which is the Dr. Steady property and live talked to several of the people here,
as many as I could get to-I couldnlt get you Mr. Smoakll.
Smoak - I tried to call you. back at quarter of four todayll.
Hunt - The property as I think you are all aware was being used as a doctor's office
and I am a real estate broker-11m not coming into give anybody any trouble, like Mr.
Beal$,I work mostly on land which is down near Disney-and I like Clermont-thatls the
reason I came here-I think itls a beautiful place and the people have been just grand
to me-so I'd like to make it my home, right now 11m pretty homesick-having a little
trouble with that, but I would like to get this zoned for business and I understand
that it's been like this for about ten years-for a doctorls office-and I feel my
business is along the same professional 1ine-I111 go about it in the proper way if I
can get any indication from the Council as to how they feel about it-I have talked
to an Attorney and he advised me that might be my best approachll.
Mayor - I know that Dr. Steady had an office there for sometime, was he grandfathered
in with that office?
Hopkins - IIItls presently zoned R-2 which doesnlt provide for any office or home
occupation. II
Beals = IIR-3 would permit <q,ome occupations-it's a non-conforming use or was a non-
conforming use and I guess ceased to be when it was soldll.
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Smoak - How does the Ordinance read on that - isn't there a six months period from
the time that it has to lay idle six months before it'stf
Hopkins - "No, it canlt be changed to another non-conforming use. If Dr. Steady had
ceased operations, than he would have had a grace period to start back up again, but
it canlt be changed to another entirely different non-conforming use. By way of history
it might give you some iBput as to what conversations have transpired up to this
point-as I understand it-the information that has been provided to me-some time ago,
even before the Steady's sold the property, they inquired as to whether or not that
space which he had used as a doctor's office could be utilized for another office-I
un~ertand he was told that it could not-then I was told that, I guess Mrs. Hunt had con-
tacted the city and inquired as to whether or not she could put a realty office in
there-mY answer at that time through Mr. Smythe was that, based on the input that
she had provided, that she wa~~going to be doing nothing more than using the telephone
on land transactions some distance from here-wasn't going to really encourage any
door or off the street traffic, this sort of thing and not dealing with local real
estate and as far as we were concerned that if she wanted to operate a real estate
effort-telephone communications and this sort of thing-no signs-no~evidence of any
business being conducted-because allover town there are people who provide themselves
with some means-additional means of support through some sort of home occupation,
if you will and our position was that there was no evidence of any traffic-no disturbance
of the neighbors-no signs-no advertising-all more the power to you-the subject of
signs came up and we definitely said, No, you canlt do that. The later discussions
I had with Mrs. Hunt wa.safter she purchased the property, now if she was mis-lead, 11m
not sure at this point, was that she had a desire to put a real estate firm in there,
one that is located locally and that my answer to that was definite, No-because
certainly there would be signs and advertising encouraging people to come by there
and transact business-so now she has acquired the property and is between a rock and
a hard place, but with signs and all the other things that go with a real estate
office, we're saying absolutely not, but based on the initial input that we had
that all this over the phone type of thing and nobody would have any idea what was
going on there anyway, we weren't going "on a witch hunt and stop her on that basis
II
Mayor - You made a statement a little while ago Mrs. Hunt that your real estate
deals are mostly in the Disney World area, is your intention to take out an
occupational license for the real estate business right here in Clermont so that you would
be operating a real estate office here in C1ermont.1I
Mrs. Hunt _IIYes, definitely, and also we are required to have a sign - certain kind and
size etc.- I canlt operate without signs.1I
Mayor - But if you were operating on deals strictly in another town-another county-
I wouldn't think that you'd be interested in advertising your place of business as a
real estate office. II
Mrs. Hunt: - IINo, not necessarily, but what I mean we are required to have a sign-itls
real estate law that you have to have a sign.1I
Beals - With 4 inch letter, I think and just Registered Real Estate Broker - not
something which Bob was probably referring toll
Mrs. Hunt - IIThis is something which we have to operate underll
Beals -IIRightll
Smoak - " But that could be on the face of your building, cou1dnlt it?1I
Mrs. Hunt - lilt has to be near your entrance.1I
Mayor - \lIt could be on the window next to the door, cou1dnlt it?"
Hopkins: ~ Well our position is that if a person is operating a business in a home, for
instance, mail-order, for instance we just had a case recently where an elderly lady came
in and wanted to know if she had to have a occupational license to do some sewing to
help supp1ment her income-this sort of thing from the present standpoint, you couldn't
enforce if you wanted to and so our position is if there are no signs-no advertising or
evidence that there is a business-no complaints from the neighbors-certainly we're
not going to stand in your way trying to make a few extra bucks and I'm sure you
need it, but where there are signs and evidence Of a business and encouraging
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commercial traffic in a residential neighborhood then we're gonna be having complaints and
we have to make it clear what the ordinance is and if we're forced to enforce it then
we donlt have any alternative-we don't want to say, Yes, itls a11right uniess we get
8 complaint and they spend money to go into business and then the next day we're down
there telling them they have to go out of business.9
Mrs. Hunt-" Incidentally I have contacted all the neighbors and theylre all for me.1I
Mayor:- IIWe understand thatfMrs. Hunt, but if I understand the situation correctly,
we would be allowing something-::that is absolutely against our ordinance and we
might just as well not have a code of ordinances if we donlt live up to them-thatls
what theylre for. lid like to be nice to you and say, Yes, but then welve got a
code of ordinances to live up to-that's what the citizens have elected us for and we
pretty well have our hands tied. II
. ,
Mrs. Hunt - Well I see your position. I thjnk in that particular area though that
certainly in the future it probably will be business anyhow. II
Mayor - IIWe11 at any time it is, we'll be glad to issue you an occupational 1icense.1I
Mrs. Hunt ~IIIn the meantime, it's not helping me anyll
Beals -IIMr. Mayor I think we ought to give Mrs. Hunt a little bit more, not necessarily
encouragement, but definite information as to how this should be handled, obviously
there is no way to grant what you want- I think technically even a design with a
4 inch letters would be termed a commercial, that would automatically make it
commercial - I think maybe your prior information might have been ill advised to
some extent.1I
Mrs. Hunt -III won't mention the name of the broker here in town, but I went through
a broker because I believe in doing that when buying property-so the broker I went
through plus the Stead~ and plus the city hall as when I went down there they
all assured me that it was a11right.1I
Beals - IIWell probably Mr. Smythe or Mr. Hopkins or whoever you talked to earlier
didnlt even think about the requirement of the real estate commission as far as
signs are required, but as I see it, there is nothing the city can do now short of
changing the zoning and that of course would have to go first before the Planning
and Zoning.1I
Mrs. Hunt -I just missed them- thatls the reason I came here before you tonight-
i would have gone there first-I just happened to be out of town and missed their
meeting. II
Mayor liDo I understand that you were given assurance at City Hall that you could open
up a real estate officell
Mrs. Hunt - III think the words were that-I checked to see if I had been informed
correctly-and he said I see no reason why you couldn't-and that,:was just about the
extent of it.1I
Hopkins - IIMr. Smythe asked me-and this was the information that I had-that she was
going to be dealing in rea!.-estate,tranaactions away from Clermont and was not going
to be dealing in local real estate and my aaswer was-if there were no signs-no
advertising, certainly welre not gonna say anything because there will be no evidence
of any business going on that would disturb the neighbors or anybody else~she
knowing that a sign was required- I wasn't at the time aware of that and she should
have, in my opinion, catalogued all that and come up with the conclusion that
Yes-we have to have a sign, so No, we can~t do it-when I talked to her myself personally
some time after she had made the initial inquiry and I explained the two alternatives
that I use as guides-that signs are advertising and encourages people to frequent
that particular place of business then we have to take the position that it is not
permissible. II
Beals: - IIThat's right as I see it, I donlt - I think itls pretty obvious there's
nothing this Council can do tonight other than refer you back and have you apply for
a change in zoning and maybe just off the top of our heads give you our .opinion as
how that might go - it would seem to me it would have kinda tough sledd1ng, but I
don't know, that's just my personal opinion-it wouldn't be spot zoning I don't
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believe because it abuts commercial, but it would be changing the character of that
special area.1I
Mrs. Hunt -IIWou1d it be a variance that I needed, or a conditional?
Beals -IINo a variance wou1dnlt be proper.1I
Hopkins -IIIf it were changed to an R-3 then professional offices would be allowed
under a conditional use.1I
Beals - 1I0f course what Mrs. Hunt is talking about-it seems to me that a change
in zoning is the only way to accomplish what Mrs. Hunt is seeking.1I
Smoak - IIAre the lots directly across from Mrs. Hunt-werenlt they changed to a
C-l zone? I
Beals - IINo.1I
Smoak - IIA11 the rest of the lots in the block were changed except those?1I
Schroede 1 - II All the lots except those fronti ng on Eas t . Avenue ..
Smoak - liThe lot facing Highway #50 on East Avenue is zoned commercial - C-2
- is that correct?1I
Schroede1 - Yes, there is a 7-E1even store there.1I
Byrd - IIAnd the property lying just east of it is not bui1dal)le.1I
Beals - III~m not suggesting that it should be changed nor how it should be changed
but it seems to me it would be kind of hypocritical to make it R-3 because what
your1re suggesting would hardly be a home occupation-now what you have in mind
original1y-I would consider that a home occupation, but not with intended future use-that
should be in a C-1 it would seem to me.1I
Schroede1 - The lots coming right up to 50 facing East Avenue are R-2.11
NO~kins- On the east side of the street - on the west side, all of that we C-1
an then when they came in with a zoning change request for a C-2 to compromise with
the folks that live on East Avenue and didnlt want it changed, it was left C-l, but the
property fronting on Highway #50 was changed to C-2 that remained as is-Mr. Kidderls
house and other property he owned.1I
Smoak -IIHow big a sign are you talking ab01lt, just for my own information.1I
Mrs. Hunt - III'believe'.i:ts 4 inches - the letters would be 4 inches - I believe that's
the minimum, I havenlt read the regulations recently.1I
Smoak - IIThi s wou1 dread IIHunt I s Real Estatell?
Mrs. Hunt -IIWe11 my name, yes.1I
Mayor _IIIt~wou1d have to read Real Estate Broker. I think the only solution for
you would be a change of the zoning and the only way you can get that is to make
application-go before the P& Z Board and get their recommendation, 11m sorry that you
were given misleading information, but I donlt believe that Mr. Hopkins, the way
he has explained it, has.1I
Mrs. Hunt -IINo, I have no quarrel with Mr. Hopkins.1I
Mayor: !! Is Bud Baker here?1I
Are the representatives of the DeMo1ay here? Yes they are in force.
We're glad to have you fel10ws.1I
Mike Cosgrove- My name is Mike Cosgrove and Um the senior counselor of the Order
IIi Demo1ay, Clermont Chapter. Welre here concerning our Demo1ay park that welre
constructing on Third Street and Crystal Lake Drive'fir~of all lid like to give you a
very brief history on DeMo1ay. The Order of Demo1ay was founded by Frank Sherman Land
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in 1919 and he gave a fatherless boy a job and figured out that there were probably
other boys like him that would need companionship and competition, so he instituted
the first Order of DeMo1ay Chapter. The boys agreed on the name DeMolay on the
suggestion of Mr. Land because he was affiliated with the Masons back in the 14th
century because he was the last Grand Master of Knights Temp1ar and he was one of the
original crusaders and during the time of the inquisition he was on crusades and
during the exchange of power he was arrested along with three of his preceptors
and he had a mistrai1-a false tria1- and was burned~at the stake along with the
preceptors. He was burned at the stake on a small island in the middle of the Seine
River in Fran~ and we are presently in communication with C1ermonte, France,
a sister city of ours and asking them if they will send something like a p1aque'or
something to commemorate so we could put it in our park permanently and we're
building this park for the use ofi.'everybody-itls a contribution of DeMo1ay to try
and beautify our city and at this time I'd like to turn this over to Steve Cook,
our Senior Steward and he will give you detailed drawing, which he drew himse1f.1I
Mayor -IIExcuse my ignorace, but what does DeMo1ay mean? II
Cosgrove -ll'Well see it was taken after Jacque DeMo1ay, the last Grand Master of
Knights Temp1ar and it~s an organization of boys under that name"
Steve Cook pointed out to Council the main things on the drawing such as location
of the trees, the proposed rock garden, the location of the DeMo1ay emblem to be
placed in concrete, the two sidewalks to be constructed, a Japanese gateway,
picnic tables and bar b-qls - a flag pole and shrubs, etc.
Schroede1 - IIWho is going to take care of this?"
Cook - liThe members of the Chapter of DeMolay.1I
Schroede1 - liDo you expect that they will take care of it and keep it Up?1I
Cook - IIYes, Sir.1I
Mayor - IIWhatls on that property now?1I
Smoak - IISandspurs - beggar weeds and f1eas.1I
Schroede1 - IIThat's the same spot that has been used in the past for Sunrise services,
isn't it?1I
Smoak - I think up until last year - I think last year they held in at the footBall
fie1d.1I
Schroede1 - IIAre there any city installations inside there - any pipe cables or lines
of any kind?1I
Hopkins -IINo, there is a sanitary sewer line that goes along one side of it, which
wouldn't be any problem.1I
Schroede1 - IIHow are going to finance this thing? You've got a lot of cost
involved in what all you plan to do.1I
Cook - IIMost of it is donations and we have fund raising activities.1I
Mayor - IIWhat is the estimated cost of what you're going to do - have any indication
of what it's gonna cost you boys to do this project?1I
Cook - lilt wouldn't cost us over $75.00.11
Mayor - Bar B-Q pits and tab1 es and all?1I
Cook - IIYes,.Sir.1I
Mayor - IIYoulre getting a pretty good price then.1I
Cook - IIMost of it all is donated. II
Byrd - IIWhat kind of picnic tables do you have in mind?1I
Cook - IIConcrete about 81 x 101.11
Mayor - IIIf what I understand is correct, what you want at this meeting is approval
of Council for you to go ahead with this project, is that right?1I
Cook - IIMore or less, Yes.1I
Mayor - IIYoulre not asking for financial assistance from Council.1I
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Coo k - II No. II
Smoak - "Mr. Mayor I live directly across the lake from that piece of property -
first of all I think anything that can be done over there would be an improvement-
secondly I think itls a very commendable effort that these young men want to partake
or initiate a project like this, both from a city improvement standpoint and from
a personal standpoint, now if your request is that the city council authorize you
to proceed, I so move that this Council do it. II
Mayor - "Youlve heard the motion, do I hear a second?"
Schroede1 - "1'11 second it. Being a former DeMo1ay, I will second the motion."
Byrd - "Are all the trees shown on that sketch?"
Cook - "Yes, Sir"
Byrd _" Are there only two oak trees over there?"
Cook - II Yes, Sir."
Mayor - Any more discussion?"
B{'rd - "Yes. I live across the lake from there too and I don't necessarily agree
wlth Mr. Smoak, I don't think that piece of property looks too bad-I'm an ecologist-
I like grass and oak trees and I'm not sure you can improve on it a whole lot with
cement".
Mayor - "Therels not going to be a lot of cement is there young man ?"
Cook - "No sir, there's goona be a sidewalk down the center with shrubbery around
the edges and we're gonna plant grass-now it's mostly sand and weeds."
Byrd - "Have you ever been involved with a rock garden?"
Cook - "Yes sir, and we have taken suggestion and looked at rock garden and welre
going to put in coquina rock and evergreens."
Byrd - I had one one time and I couldn't keep the weeds pulled out of it."
Smoak - "Since youlre the rock president and sales manager of Tower Chemical Company,
that you might seriously consider donating to the DeMo1ay on this worthy project,
some selective herbicides to keep their rock garden c1ean."
B~rd - Smoak you don't put herbicides around oak trees - if I did that and the oak
trees died, lid get run out of town."
Smoak - The rock garden as 1ayed out there is not around the oak trees."
Beals -~Mr. Mayor I live across the lake from there too and donlt want to be left
out. I'd just like to compliment the DeMo1ay on what theylre doing-I've noticed
the last couple of Saturdays they've been working down there real hard-I've ridden
by and saw them-I saw mY dearifriend, Dean Scott down there and lid look the other way and
hurry by fast for fear held solicit my help-I see he's here tonight-11m free with
advice but I was afraid he might put a spade in my hand etc. but seriously I think
that you are to be,x:ommended for the work which you are doing."
Byrd - "ls there any assurance that this park is gonna be kept and/~a~R!a1~ed and
the city not going to have to take it over and keep it Up."
Dean Scott - I believe I can give you the answer to that. These boys are desirous
of having a beautiful city park-they are totally involved in it-each one of them
are out working-taking jobs to earn money to buy the necessary shrubs and flowers and
r~cks! etc. to put in it and we have been assured help from just about every organiza-
~10n In.town - Yes, I give you my total and complete assurance that this is a continu-
mg proJect. II
Mayor - II Thank.you ~ir. I'm,not too well acquiainted with DeMo1ay, but I've never
heard a word agalnst lt and I ve heard a lot of nice things about it and I want to
~hank you boys for ~eing here-firs~ I want to thank you for your efforts and then -
lS there any ~re dlS~us~ion? All ln favor of the motion then, signify by saying Aye.
The Ayes bave lt and lt lS so ordered;
)
Smoak - I believe we can go one step further-I think every member of this Council
can donate $10.00 to the Clermont Chapter of DeMo1ay wouldn't you be in agreement
with that, Mr. Schroede1? I'm sure Mr. Byrd wou1d.~
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Byrd -
Smoak -
"Did you ever pay your $25.00?"
~Yes I did, did you?
Byrd -"No, I never got around to it - I better send them a check."
S26tt- Gentlemen, I can assure you that we will accept your ten do11ars."
Smoak - Senior Advisor, will you please remind each of the Council members in writing
of their pledges of he1p?1I
Cosgrove - "Yes, Sir, I wi11."
Mayor - Mr. Minnick, do you wish to approach the Council at this time?"
Mark Minnick -The Babe Ruth League is raising quite a lot of racke~about the softball
league using the East Avenue field and also the high school coach is too, but to get
around everything, that second field by the little League field-well theylre trying
to acquire another field for practice now I understand, but if that fence could
be moved back and the light poles moved, it wouldn't affect tittle League at all and
weld have to place to play also and then this summer when we'll have the time, weill
work the infield and grass it etc. and I feel improve that field quite a bit-the
biggest problem right now are the mosquitoes being so bad- Little League has been
having that problem too, with the fields being so close to the marsh - I presently
have a list of 60 some players with one team of about 15 members that I don't have
the names of yet and three out of town teams that want to play us and we'd like
to have a place here in Clermont to play without having to go out of our town to
have a place to p1ay- Minneo1a has given us permission to play over there if we'd
pay half of the light bill and still there is no fence over there and the lighting
is most inadequate."
Schroede1 - Mark, it is my understand that the town of Minneo1a pays one half of the
light bill over there and the Progressive Club pays the other ha1f.1I
Minnick - "Thatls right, but Minneola wants us to pay their half and they really
donlt want us to play at a11"
Schroede1 - "Are there any Minneo1a boys playing on these teams?"
Minnick - Some, but a very small percentage II
Schroede1- In other words, they are going to penalize their own boys who would be
playing there."
Minnick -"Right"
Beals - "We11 I think we ought to encourage you to stay in Clermont ~y until such
time as Minneo1a is a part of Clermont and then maybe you want to go back over there."
Mayor - Mr. Hopkins what is your opinion on the request to move the fence back with
Florida Power moving the light po1es?"
Hopkins - "We11 welve been considering this for a couple of years- We had some
figures toward moving the fence-there would be some additional fence required-the
poles would have to be moved-the lighting would have to be increased with the
increased distance- Florida Power is taking a little different position now, as are
all organizations, in being as benevolent as theylve been in the past-about a year
ago when they were more benevolent than they are now-they would only go half the
cost, so with moving the fence-putting up some additional new fence-moving the
poles and increasing the lighting would cost us about $1,000.00."
Beals - II What about the present Municipal Park-you say youlve been~the Babe Ruth and the
High School have been giving you some difficu1ty'."
Minnick - Now I havenlt heard anytning myself from Babe Ruth, itls just we understood
that Bud Baker was going to be here tonight to appear against us using the fie1d."
Beals - "There was a Bud Baker on the agenda tonight, but he's not present."
Smoak - Charles, irregard1ess if there were no complaints-the field theylre playing
on - the distances that the bags are from home plate - the distance of the pitchers
mound from home plate do not conform with the type of ball they're playing-they Ire
playing on a regulation baseball/field and soft pitch softball-there is 30 feet
difference. II
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Beals - I'm aware of that, but you had indicated at last meeting that that was
satisfactory by leaving the base lines where they were and would not use cleats and
would even rake it Up.1I
Minnick - I spent 1~ hours myself after the last game raking it up the Wh01f base
lines-every thing- and Mr. Black assured us he wouldn't throw\us any-fussas- ong as we
didn't use it on 6 different days and then he turned around and was supposed to be
down here tonight to fuss about us using it.1I
Beals - liThe only thing I don't want is for you to feel 1ike--- the high school has
absolutely no jurisdiction over it anyway-it was just out of the goodness of the
cityls heart that the high school gets to use it, nor the Babe Ruth League either, you
know, to run you!.:pepple off-my sympathy is with some 80 to 100 people that are wanting
to use it for softba11.11
Mayor: - I think the most equitable solution to get these boys what they really
need and be proper, like Mr. Smoak says youlve got 90 foot base lines there and the
pitchers mound is longer than it would be in regulations softball that if there is
anyw~y possible that we can see our way clear to reorganizing this field out here--
lid be in favor of going along that line.1I
Minnick- The only thing on the muncipal field-we played a practice game with Bob
Wade Ford there the other night and what welre really after is a place that ~can have
- know when we can practice-have schedules set up and go ahead and set up our game. '), ,'-,
schedu1es.1I Welve got two more teams wanting to form, but they're a little
hesitant right now because we canlt set up a schedule yet - they like to have run
us to death down there with those long base 1ines- it was really pretty bad.1I
Mayor - IIWhatls the schedule on this field that welre talking about renovating-the
one down on 12th Street - how much is it used?1I
Hopkins- liThe Little League uses it for practice-of course they don't play on it-
we had make arrangements with Florida Power before we had the effluent problem and
started spraying back there to go ahead and move the fence and then that came
up as possible consideration for part of the irrigation and we held off and I just told
Florida Power to file the letter and hold it in abeyance, which I am sure with very
little notice we can arrange to have the fence company come in and relocate the fence
and Florida Power to move the 1ights.1I
Mayor - IIThey will (Florida Power) cooperate with us on part of the expense of moving
the lights wonlt they?1I
Hopkins - IIWhen I initially made my inquiry they agreed to pay half, but they1re being
hit with financial problems like everybody else and not giving away this free labor
and equipment usage like they've done in the past and 11m sure they'll stand by their
original commitment to me and that was about $250.00 of gratis work on behalf of Florida
Power at that time.1I
Mayor - III know they've been very cooperative and nice in the past - I don't know how
they are today.1I
B~rd - IIDid you say that you could go ahead and use the second field thatls down there
t is year in essentially the same 9nOpe that it's in now or would you"
Minnick - IINot the fence. The fence would have to be movedll
B*rd - IIIn other words the fence is moved, you would be in business down there? and
t e problem at the other place is that you just can't get in because so many other
people are already using it.1I
Minnick - IITrying to set up a schedule - we can't seem to get on in, since I was here
two weeks ago, welve been down practicing at the Little League extra field almost
every night and we haven't run into a Little League team yet-there was a game going
on one time,but that was on the other field, so we didn't have any trouble there.1I
Mayor - IIIf that fence is moved back, Mr. r+linnick could you get by without the lights ::..,,'___
moved?1I
Minnick - IINo, Sir. Weld have a lighting problem without them being moved:
Beals - You were talking about $l,OOO.OO-that's the city's half participation in
the lights and all the cost of moving the fence-all for $1,000.00?1I
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Hopkins - III figure it would be about $1,000.00 based on the figures I already hadll
Smoak - IIWhat do you figure the cost is for moving the fence?1I
Hopkins- III think it was about $500 to $600 for moving the fence and for increasing
the fence about 150 feet.1I
Beals - Seems to me that would be money well spent-next year Florida Power might
not be so benevolent and the tennis courts are just nammed every night now and
this might take a little pressure off them.1I
Hopkins- IIWe11 for years now, Florida Power has a1waJ~ volunteered their assistance
in replacing the lights on these poles-when their bucket truck was in town they
would go right out and replace lights for us-now theylre telling us they canlt do that
anymore-theylre attitude is changing a little bit.1I
Mayor - IIWeld better catch it before it changes entire1i'
Schroede1 -IIDoes this require a motion?1I
Ma?or - Well I think the City Manager would like to have the acquise of the Council
be ore he decides to do anything, wouldnlt you Bob?1I
Hopkins _IIYes, Sir. If you decide to do it, 1111 find the $1,000.00
Minick -IISince I am more or less representing every bod" 'J ddwwr here and I think after
we figured it up, you've got about 50 some taxpayers on this thing, they're also
curious since youlve got a Little League Association - A Babe Ruth Association and
now youlve got this one - in the future could bleachers be put up on that field adjoining
it?1I
Smoak III want to bring this to your attention - the Little League has an assocaation
which has spent a great deal of money-the Association's money from fund raising
projects'to improve that field that theylre using-so it's not all city participation
in all that's been done down there-for instance last year I think it was $1400
that they spent for some project or other down there-anyway they do contribute a
great deal to sustaining their own thing going down there I think the city certainly
participates in maintenance-general construction and this sort of thing-itls not a 100%
ci ty financed. II
Beals - liThe city pays the umpires salaries which live always thought was a little
too much.1I
Hopkins -IIWe11 I think that, without being argumentative, I think the city foots
99.99% of the bill out there we maintain it-we gave them<$575.00 out of last years budget
to pay the umpires and this sort of thing- we replace the lights-we pay the light
bill-we replace the locks on the concession standy every day-this sort of expense-
I'm not degrading the contribution that Little League makes, I think it's a very
worthwhile organization-but I think the softba11ers desire some consideration as
we1l-I donlt know why the field was designed a softball field to start with with the
fences as close as they are-it serves no useful purpose right now- itls no good for
Little League-itls no good for hardball and itls no good for anything excep~to.just
get out therell
Smoak - IIIf a motion is in order, I move that the necessary action be taken out
there at a minimum expense-whatever action be necessary up to $1,000.00 expenditure
be taken to make the field useful for the softbal11eague~1I .
Beals - 111'11 second itll
The Ayes were unanimous from Council and Mayor Smith declared the motion carried.
Smoak - Bob could the city use any labor from the gentlemen playing in moving
the fence or would this organization be willing to hel4)?1I
Minnick - III'm sure that my team would and I feel sure the others would too. Is
it a11right to go ahead and set up our game schedules now?
Mayor - III see no reason why you shou1dnlt. You keep in touch with Mr. Hopkins
as to when he can arrange to have the poles and the fence moved and you then you
contact the others in your organization to set up a work party to help move the fence.1I
City Clerk Carroll read a letter from Ray P. Cochran wherein he urged that Council
give consideration on an individual basis to allowing home construction on small
lots in lieu of refusing all permits to building lots inferior in size as per the
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zoning ordinance. He specifically requested that consideration be given to Willie
and Beatrice Lott to build a home on their lot which is 45 feet wide. It was the
suggestion of Councilman Beals that a copy of this letter be forwarded to the seller
of the property, Charlie Johnson.
City Manager Hopkins reported as follows: That the sanitary sewer assessment notices
were mailed to all property owners approximately two weeks ago anJi~~o date $179,204.16
~}had been received less a $36,000.00 interest payment leaving a b~ of $143,204.16
C now being invested at 7% interest: That he had received maps of the proposed construction
for the cable TV system-the company has been in town for a number of weeks making
preparations for the start of construction and hopefully within the next few weeks,
construction will actually start; That arrangements had been made to host the Lake
County League of Cities meeting at the Elks Club on Wednesday, April 18th; That in
a memo dated April 6th, Council was reminded of need to make additional appointments
to the P & Z Commission due to the expiration of the temporary terms of George Hovis
and George Dupee-unless the Charter is changed in May possibly by the next meeting of
the Commission we would be unable to get a quorum together based on the total number
of 11 and welve got some very important business coming up in May; That yesterday
correspondence was received from the Florida Department of Pollution Control regarding
our application for $150,000.00 from the revolving loan program-it seems a number
of procedural changes have taken place since our initial application and that welve been
invited to reapply-considerable additional information must be provided including
documentation of the financial program to repay the loan and engineering reports
done on the project to support any estimated construction costs-it may be well for
Council to review these in a work session before making reapplication; That in a
work session on April 2nd, a revised salary and wage schedule was presented and discussed
and it is my recommendation that this pay plan be implemented as of May 1st and
request Council approval of that recommendation; That he had been toying with the
idea of some kind of incentive plan for an "emp10yee of the month" sort of thing;
That a final estimated from Bumby and Stimpson had been received in the amount of
$121,690.92 on the collection system-we're withholding $5,000.00 until the final document
of approval has been given by the Federal Government and he recommended that $70,000.00
be charged to the General Fund for additional resurfacing under this project and
transferred to the Construction Account and $25,000.00 be transferred to the Construction
Account as a loan; That inasmuch as several large important items are to come up in the
very near future before the P & Z Commission such as a 32 acre PUD and since we
donlt have personnel in house who are qualified to evaluate such engineering plans
and recommendations for change, that he thereby requested permission to engage Dawkins
and Associates to do this.
With regard to appointments to the P & Z Commission:
Beals - "Mr. Mayor, by May wonlt the Charter have been amended so that to take care
of this?"
Vason - II If the bi 11 was passed"
Beals - "Ilve never known of a local bill not passing."
Vason - liThe deadline is April 20th for filing the bill and the question is going to
be not whether or not the bill is gonna pass but whether or not the bill is passed by
the legislature prior to this meeting in May."
Beals - "0f course you are the City Attorney, but the fact that the intent is here-
that itls just a matter of formality-I mean-if the local delegation is for it, the
legislature is going to pass it, so that shouldnlt even be an issue-the fact that the
intent is here, cou1dnlt we just go on assumption?"
Smoak- "I wonder to be on the safe side, if Mr. Dupee and Mr. Hovis would be agreeable,
reappoint them for an additional month and ask that they attend the May meeting to make
sure there would be a quorum, and then there wou1dnlt be any prob1ems.1I
Mayor - I think that's a good idea. Well Mr. Hovis as I understand it has told
Mr. Hopkins he would continue as a member of the Board.1I
Hopkins -III talked to him today and now it's Maybe and Maybe Not.1I
Beals - IISure1y he would attend that one meeting.1I
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Henry Czech - "Mr. Mayor may I say a few words?"
Mayor - "Certain1y, go ahead."
Czech - I think that a year or year and a half ago the question of reduction of the
size of the P & Z Commission came up and the Charter says there must be 11 members,
is that correct?1I
Hopkins - As of right now, Yes, Sir."
Czech - "Now on the basis of the legislature MAY change, if the P & Z Board takes
action on May 1st and not legally constituted,"'WOu1d their actions be 1egal?"
Beals - "Probably not but the fact that Messrs. Dupee and Hovis would agree to serve."
Czech - III donlt think that brings it up to 11, does it Bob?1I
Hopkins - lilt brings it up to 11 as we have Messrs. Baird and VanderMeer."
Czech - "Havenlt you accepted their resignations?"
Smoak - "Yes, Sir, we did."
Czech.- "Then they cannot be inc1uded."
Beals - Was it formally accepted? Well they could be reappointed for one meeting."
Smoak - "I think all you need is a quorum."
Czech - "C1aude the question came up a year and a half ago and it was stated that the
legal number of members of the Commission was 11- I'm only bringing it up because I
donlt think the P & Z Board should be asked to operate in anything but a legal manner -
we do not have 11 members now-and the Charter says there should be 11."
Beals - Mr. Czech, if a member of the City Council expired you would have only 4
Council members but I think they could legally transact business, etc. until such
time as substitutions are made."
Czech "Charles that is what you think, but what is legal? The only thing I want is
to be sure that we donlt ask the members to come out and then find out that what they
act on is not 1ega1.-
Smoak - "I agree 100%"
Vason - It says flat 11 members, but it doesn't say anything about a quorum-no quorum
requirement. II
Beals - lilt seems incredible to me that anything that would be done would be challenged
in the courts and nullified-after all they are just an advisory board."
Byrd - "I feel like Mr. Czeoh though, if youlre gonna have, you might as well play
by the rules."
Beals - "That Charter calls for a city marshall -we donlt have a marsha1l-welve got a
chief of po1ice.1I
Hopkins- "I believe the Code of Ordinances calls for ____II
Bea1s--- If you start looking for discrepancies in there, you~re going to be able to
find them - I think we're---"
Czech - IIWe11 then letls not have a bookll
Beals - I don't think youlll ever have a book that thick thatts going to be lett er
perfect, Mr. Czech."
Czech - I agree with you-the only reason-11m not bringing this up for any personal
reason-11m doing this for the good of the city-I think when it says 11, it should be 11."
Mayor - "We11 the action taken by the P & Z Board is advisory-nothing binding or
final about it-if the Council sat on the recommendations of the P & Z Board-weld
have to have a quorum-weld have to vote to either turn down the recommendations
of the P & Z Board or uphold the recommendation-and really then you're just acting
in an advisory capacity to the Counci1."
Czech - Well if that's the opinion, thatls fine - the only thing I go back to is what
happened a year and a half ago when you were told that it had to be 11."
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924
Vason - "That would be my opinion also-from reading the Charter the Charter does require
that there be 11 members of the P & Z Commission."
Beals - And what are the ramifications if there are not?"
Vason !! Well no one ever challenges-there are no ramifications whatsoever. II
Beals - "What is there to challenge of an advisory board? I mean the fact that the
Charter calls for 11 doesnlt even refer to how may a quorum would be, I'd be lead to
believe that unless 11 members were there it would be nu1~ and void in the action
they took anyway. II
Burd - lilt appears to me that short of a court trial, that if a member of the P & Z
Commission itself challenges the number of members that that in itself is a challenge,
particularly if he is the Chairman."
Smoak - II I agree with Mr~ Czech - if it call for 11, let's have 11 until the
State legislative body accepts our charter changes and reduces it to 7 members."
Mayor - u" How many members do we have now? Appointed members of the P & Z Board?"
Czech - "You have 7 permanent members and two whose terms expire in April of 173
making a total of 9. II
Beals - "Well let's ask Mr. Dupee - maybe Messrs. Baird and VanderMeer will agree."
Mayor - "I don't think Mr. VanderMeer can, he no longer lives in the city."
Smoak - "possibly Mrs. Dupee and Mr. Loomis."
Beals - "Wou1d you mind- you donlt even have to attend the May meeting there would
be~a quorum probab1y-yould just agree to be the 11th member."
Mayor - Just a short term, Mr. Loomis."
City C1erk- "Your honor is this reappointment on Dupee and Hovis and new appoHltment
for Mr. Loomis and Mrs. Dupee?"
Mayor - "Mrs. Dupee was mentioned in order to get this 1ega1."
Beals - "Mrs. Dupee would you serve?"
Mayor: - What would you make that - a 60 day appointement? until we can get the action
of the legislature and then we can relieve them of their duties."
Vason - "I would appoint them for two years, Your Honor - if you're gonna follow
the book, the book says you've got to appoint them for 2 years
SmeBk - liThe book says 6 for 2 years and 5 for 1 year. II
Hopkins -"That was initially though, was it not."
Vason - "A11right, the vacancy you can appoint for the unexpired term."
Beals - "Then likewise if a council member expired in the middle of the year his
successor would be appointed for two years so it would go beyond the next general e1ection."
Mayor - "If I understand this, a vacancy occurred with Messrs. VanderMeer and Baird
and it would be the Council's perogative to appoint two to take their place for the
remaining terms of their office."
Va~on - "For the unexpired term."
Beals - "0k you better pick two of these to replace two and two of the others to rep1ace--"
Mayor - I think we have to appoint two to replace VanderMeer and Baird and make their
appointment to finish out the unexpired term of those two gentlemen and then have to
appoint two more for two year terms-isn't that right?"
Vason - "Not being familiar with when these original appointments were made"
Hopkins - "VanderMeer and Baird were appointed January of 1972."
Vason - "0ne year or two years?"
Hopkins - "Two years. For calendar years 72 and 73 so their terms would have expired
with the appointements coming up !in January."
Beals - "I donlt know why men of good faith canlbe be more pragmatic and just transact
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925
business in a more rational manner than this- the intent-everyone is aware of the
intent- I think welre just complicating the issue-I want a city marshall appointed tonight
a1so.11
Smoak - IIWe11 the next meeting of this body is on the 24th of April - that would still
give the Council time to find out-No. 1- if the city ordinance changes have been
accepted by the state legislature-if they have not been then it will give the Council
time to appoint 4 members to maie it legal by the May meeting, so it would be my
suggestion that we table it until the next meeting and find out the results of the
action of the state legis1ature.1I
Beals - III concur with that.1I
Mayor - If that meets with the approval of the Council - does it take a motion
to table that? Well 1etls not gettOo technical with it - if it meets with the approval
of Council weill table this until the next meeting and then weill find out if the
state legislature has done anything and still appoint 4 members to be in accordance
with the ordinance. The next order of Business is -Bob, do you wantt to call
a work meeting to see what we want to do on reapplying for that $150,000.00 loan?
and bring us up to date on what the requirements are and all the way theylve changed
it around- I think we're about due for another work meeting-we havenlt had one in a
few days
Smoak - Ills it so involved that it canlt be conducted at a regular meeting?1I
Hopkins - IIWe11 the requirements have changed that they are very reluctant, No.1,
this isnlt part of this package, just some input-the Fla. Department of Pollution
Control is being very hesitant about accepting federal revenue sharing money as
the payback-you got to come up with a guarantee payback of the money that you borrow-
and therels no guarantee beyond June as far as federal revenue sharing money is
concerned-youlve also got to have documentation from engineering reports, etc. to
support your claim of the estimated cost of construction whatever the project is-
initially they said you could have the money as long as you paid it back when you
said you would pay it back, now theylre saying that you can draw it from the Department
of Pollution Control as you need it- the same way you would as if it were a house-
if you make any interest off it- you have to pay that interest back-if you donlt
spend it within 30 days, you have to send it back.1I
Smoak - IIFrom what you Ire saying then, welve got to have a complete set of engineering
plans".
Hopkins - We've got to know exactly what we want to do. Now as far as Minnehaha
Estates is concerned-we've got the plans and I'm sure we can come up with estimates
based on those plans at todays prices to satisfy them, but then it would take federal
revenue sharing money over a 3 year period to pay the $100 or $150,000.00 to pay them
back- part of the original application was for acquisition of land - $30,000 of it
was- I donlt think itls in our best interest now to pursue thatll
Schroede1- Mr. Mayor why donlt .we have a work session to work these details out.1I
Hopkins - To start with, they were gonna make things easier for cities to get money
and now they're more complicated, you gotta have a whole staff of people just to get
out the reports on itll .
/ Mayor _If What's your' pleasure-want to call a work meeting to discuss-this further?
I think if there is any possible way we can get $150,000.00, we ought to get it, if we
can get it-that is if it isn't something we can't take care of-primarily we could
use that other money to repay that cou1dnlt well
Hopkins - As of right now we donlt have an acceptable program as federal revenue
sharing does not guarantee it for 3 years, the duration of this 10an~
Smoak - Would all the money be pledged that we would generate from Minnehaha Estates
in sewer collections-would it be pledged against the initial loan-the money borrowed
to put the collection lines inll
Hopkins - If you want to sewer assessments - Yes, 11m sure they would. If you want
to assessments, we would give them 10 years and welre gonna have to have this paid
back in three yearsll
Mayor - IIHow about the sewerage chargell
Hopkins - The service charge?1I
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926
Mayor - "Yeas."
Hopkins -"That was suggested as part of the payback?
. Smoak - lilt is my suggestion that you know moYe.about thi s than any of us where we can
generate funds-set down and layout a schedule where in fact we can get it and
evaluate it as to whether or not we want to pursue it"
Hopkins - "Wel1 welve got the commitment to Minnehaha Estates - we've also got the
problem of effluent-we've also got the prospects of some additional expenditures to
meet-Pollution Control, both Lake County and Florida-to meet new requirements, itls
gonna take additional expenditures-right now welve got to start socking away $9,000.00
a month to meet interest payments-that's gonna take money out of general fund from
excise taxes because welre not generating that much in revenue-it's a complicated
ball game welre pa1ying now and I donlt know where the money is gonna come from to do
all these things-if I knew how much we were gonna have to spend-then I'd be in a
little better position to say where we are gonna get x number of dollars-but I donlt
know how much itls gonna be"
Schroede1 -"How much do you expect to get back from this federal revenue sharing"
- Hopkins - "Welre getting 13 - we got a che~kl for the first quarter of this year -
it was $15,000.00-for January, February and March"
Schroede1 - "That was the first payment?
Hopkins - "We had received last year a total of about $50,000.00 and now we get a
check every 3 months and the one just received was for $15,000.00-so what we're
saying-welre gonna pledge $50,000.00 per year to payoff that 150,000.00 over 3
years-but there's no guarantee from the federal goverDment that this program is going to
be funded past June - so theylre saying, well you don't have a 9uarantee where youlre
gonna get the money, how are you going to guarantee that you gonna pay the money
back"
Byrd - "Does the repayment schedule say it has to be within 3 years or 1ess"
Hopkins - 3 years~icks in my mind-in equal payments over the life of the loan not to
exceed 3 years-what theylresaying is-you've got to go after some long term financing
or something and we want you to be able to guarantee to us this money is gonna
be available when it is due and we want it paid back in 3 years regardless of how
much you borrow in order words if you're gonna sell revenue bonds and get 5 million
dollars sometime within the next 3 years and theylre saying when you get that money
back you pay us back so you can go ahead and get started and donlt have to wait
until you get your long term financing settled?
Beals - liDo you think itls appropriate to have a special meeting of the Council now
or better get with the engineer and John Fleming and come up with some proposa1s"
Hopkins -Well this business of the degree of treatment for the effluent-that's the
problem thatls handing over our heads now- the 90% treatment that welre getting that
meets state standards - does not meet Lake County standards"
_ Beals - Well Lake County is the most stringer.t in the United S'tates"
Hopkins - "That's true, but nevertheless they are the ones that we've got to satisfy
Beals - "I wonder if we do have to"
Hopkins - Well to just give you some idea of the cost we may be confronted with as far
as advanced waste water treatment, and 1111 just say this for the benefit of the
audience, if we have to go to advanced waste water treatment to satisfy the requirements
of the Pollution Control Board and according to that Ok1awaha Plan we've got until
August of 1976 to satisfy those requirement-itls gonna cost us about, for advanced
waste water treatment, $441.00 per mi11lAPtga110ns per day to treat it and that
comes to about $161,000.00 per year to/t~@at the stuff-now if welve got a half
million gallon plant running 5 to 600 thousand gallons per day and based on the 15 hundred
hookups we've got now welre talking about a minimum of $12.00 per month for sanitary
sewer service charge just to pay for the operation- are people gonna settle for that-
wheYeare we gonna get the money to make this improvement-not the debt obligation, but
to pay back for the additional construction-welre talking about another quarter of
million dollars, smmething like that-so their alternative to us for which economics
is not a factor as far as they're concerned-so I don't know where we are"
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927
Maaor ~ Well I still believe and I always will that until they change my mind that
I onlt give a darn how much the Pollution Board wants you to do-they can't make
you do something that you can't do-they've got to pull in their horns somewhere-itls
a11right to tell a person what they want you to do, but then if you can show them
that you canlt do it-theylre not gonna shut our sewer plant down
Hopkins _IIYes, but they can stop you from hooking up any morell
Smoak - IITheylre trying to correct all the abuses of the past mi11enium overnight and
you just canlt do itll
Mayor -III donlt think so either-youlve got to give and take in any situation and theylre
taking and not giving and theylve got to give a litt1ell
Hopkins - IIWe11 by comparison, Florida is one of the few states, if not the only,
that requires 90% treatment. Lake County is the only county in the State of Florida
that requires drinking water qua1ity~
Mayor - ., Only one in the United States. Well they've got high ideals but itls time
they recognize those ideals are something else againll
Hopkins - "We1l welve just engaged an engineer to figure out how in the world that welre
gonna meet these standards and all that costs moneyll
Mayor - IIWe11 , welve got to show that our intent is goodll
Beals - IINow youl1l be out of town next Tuesday, wonllt yoU?1I
Hopkins - IIY es, I wi1111
Beals - IICan it wait until after-maybe the next meeting or somethingll
Hopkins - III think so-I just want you to be aware that theylve thrown it back at us
and we need to reconsider itll
Mayor - liThe next thing is the wage and salary schedule and Mr. Hopkins recommendation
that it be implemented as of May 1stll
Smoak - IIBob, what do you estimate the cost to the city based on your full complement
of emp10yessll
Hopkins - :$14,000.11
Smoak - IIThat would be the annual increase? the increase based on May 1st?
Hopkins - lilt would be for 6 months - it would be a recurring cost of at least double
thatll
Smoak - IIWhat is your percentage of a full complement nowll
Hopkins - IIWe've got budgeted 46 employees and at my last count we had 5 vacancies- 26%
of our complement is either vacant or less than 6 months - the last day or two we have
hired a couple of people - I donlt know how long theyl11 last but they still fall in
this 6 months or less or vacant-welve still got I believe 3 vacaniesll
Smoak - IIWell therels no question that there is tremendous competition for anyone
capable of doing any kind of job in this area-especially common labor-but the degree
of competition from the construction industry-the degree of competition from the small
industrial complexes going in-particularly the tourist oriented people-it's just tremendous
and I feel it just as much as anybody-I would suggest that we go along with your
recommendation knowing full well that I really donlt think this is the answer because even
with the increase that you're talking about you're still not in the ball game from a
competitive standpoint with outside industries-youlre not even competitive with me and
live got 49.8% of my complement thatls been here 2 days and the rest of them are nowll
Hopkins - I would be the first one to admit that and I would also say that at this
point and time itls all that we can afford-I had a meeting with the employees and I said,
IIWhy are you working for the city? well, there are a number of reasons why they work
for the city- job security-they like their boss-they like thevworking conditions and
several other things, but they are quick to remind you that they can go up to the
Holiday Inn and get a dollar more per hour-we're not interested in that, but we
would at least like to get enauggc to put bread on the table and you know that welre
hurting-I'm trying to build a program around their needs so I can keep them knowing
that the money is not the sole thing but has to be enough to feed their fami1iesll
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928
Smoak - II Mr. Mayor I move that the Council approve the recommendation of the City
Manager in his revised wage and salary schedu1ell
Beals _II 11111 second itll
The Ayes were unanimous and Mayor Smith ordered the motion carried.
Mayor - IINext i;'bem is to discuss the employee incentive programll
Smoak - III worked at place called Maas Bros. in Lake1and where they had a situation
like this -the first Saturday of every month there was an employee coffee before the
store opened and there was an employee of the month type of arrangement and I think it
caused more consternation among the employee than anything else that happened it
may not be true in this case - I don't really think it improve morale at a1111
Beals - lIif I mght speak against motherhood, I thought the same thing-maybe an employee
of the year or somethingll
Smoak - If youlve got 46 employee complement right now and assuming that everyone
of your employees are good enough to be this-he's got to be there 4 years to even be
recognizedll
Schroede1 llCanjhey win it more than one time II
Hopkins -IIYeah, surell
Smoak - IIHow may departments to you havell
Hopkins- :Three:
Smoak - uI think if you could work it out on a departmental basis every quarter and attain
what you want to do and let the employees in that department choose the person~
Hopkins - III don't know what the answer is but based on your comments on some type of
departmental thing might be appropriate-when I do a good job I like to be recognized
and I feel sure they feel the same way' - I attempt every opportunity I have to get
around and talk with them and let them know at least that welre interested in what
theylre doing and what their problems are- I woul(kjust like some way to recognize themll
Smoak - IIWe11 Maas Bros. had an alternative to this program where they dropped this
program and went to a department head inventive program whereby the department head
could pick out any employee any week for performances above and beyond duty and put
an extra ten dollars in his pay envelope with a note attached saying that we appreciate
the good job your doing and that might be the only ten he got that year, but ,t reallY
let them know that they did recognize himll
_iMayor- III think perhaps we ought to let this ride at the present time and let Bob think
, it over a 1 i tt1 e moreft
Schroede1 -IIHow high up the line would you go - foreman? supervisor?
Hopkins - IIWell as I indicated in my memo, we'd probably have a committee of three and
then I thought well with a committee of three, those three were apt not to get recognized
because those people would be reluctant to say they were the ones to be recognized,
so I thought that maybe the first three department heads could recommend their people
to me and lid make the decision on the first three that were selected would end up
on this committee-youlve got all kinds of problems in trying to implement something like
thisll
Mayor - III think if maybe going b y departments and have those men competing for it in
their own department, so you wouldn't have a man on the police force competing with a man
that is a laborer out on the jobll
Beals - IICounci1 would be included, wouldn't thei'
Hopkins liThe City Manager isll
Mayor - IIWe11 how about this money deal down here on the Bumby and Stimpson-the transfer of
funds, etc.-you need action on that, Bob?1I
Hopkins - IIYes, Sir, the contractor is threatening my head if I don't pay him-live got
enough problems without thatll
Mayor - II Will you enumerate p1easell
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929
Ho ins - III1What has happened is that the job over-ran-by a sizeable amount of money-
ov rt' 00,000.00, but the over-run as I have indicated was because of extensions-additional
paving and what have you-there was a considerable amount of additional resurfacing ~one
on some streets that were designated as cut and patch and as I also indicated, we didnlt
g~t prior approval-we didnlt get the information-but I am satisfied that there about
$70,000.00 or so that went to this resurfacing and rather than transfer it as an expense
to the Qbility, I suggest that we earmark it as resurfacing from the general fund which
would have been necessary eventually anyway-I think itls a legitimate general fund
expense- I need to transfer $70,000.00 right now so that I can pay the contractor-now
as the engineers payments come due and we settle up with him-in addition to the
federal grant money, we will need another probably $25,000 to $30,000 which would be
transferred later, which would be a legitimate construction expense as opposed to this"
Smoak - "What youlre saying is that you've got the $70,000.00 in the general fund
and you just want authorization to ~pend it for resurfacing. Where is the money now?"
City Clerk - It is in the general fund contmngency account and a Budget Amendment is
needed to transfer it to Capital Outlay-Street Resurfacing"
Smoak - "I so move"
Mayor- II11Wou1d you read the motion p1ease"
City Clerk - "A budget amendment to transfer $70,000.00 from the Community Services
Contingency Account to Capital Outlay-Street Resurfacing"
Bea 1 s - II III second i t"
The ~es were unanimous and the Mayor ordered the motion carried.
Hopkins "Your honor there is one additional item on engineering review on subdivisions
and-what I want is authorization to invite Dawkins and Associates to review subdivision
or planned unit development p1ans-drainage-sanitary sewer and this sort of thing
and make recommendations to the city as itls needed-project by project'
Mayor- "Have they given you any kind of estimate on that kind of work"
Hopkins - "This would vary on the size of the job and the necessary work but the rates
between engineering firms are comparable"
Smoak - "We11 I canlt see spending $2,000 on anything like this and the char~er
amendments will approve the City Manager spending up to $2500.00 and certainly that
ought to cover it-any review of plans-so do you think additional authorizationiis necessary
Hopkins -IIWel1 I would like authorization to use Dawkins and Associates, just for the
record II
Beals - III would move that that authorization be grantedll
Byrd - II I second i tll
The Ayes were unanimous and the Mayor ordered that the motion be carriedll
Beals - "Mr. Mayor before leaving the Manager's report, if we might backtrack just a
minute, on this matter of the Planning and Zoning Board appointements, for several
years I have tried to get this Board reduced in number, not for any ulterior
motive other than I think the fewer number could serve more effectively and it seems
like every time itls in view someone comes up with a technicality which acts as a
stumbling block and just for my own clarification now, who is the burden on as far
as legislative action, does Dick have what he needs or should we be talking to you Bob
or should we be talking to Dick or just wholl
Mayor - IIIt;s already up before the 1egis1aturell
Beals -IIItls aeeaadrawn- I mean we're not going to come back to the next meeting and
somebody would have fumbled the ball and it not be---"
Vason - IINow Dick and I - Dick said that he would push the bill through for us, but
I plan to work very closely with him and some other people ithat I know in Tallahassee
and make sure that the bill does get throughll
Beals - IIThen as far as you see-forsee-there will be nOn if I can help in the drafting
of it or hand carrying it to Tallahassee-I'll be glad toll
Mayor - As I understand it, itls already up there
Seals - IINo.
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9 ~.o_
Vason -"No, welre gonna try to get it up there tomorrow morning
Beals -"You're going to Tallahassee"
Vason - "No, I'm gonna mail it to him"
Mayor - "ls it ready to mai1"
Vason - IIYes, Sirll
Byrd - liThe way the mail service is, it might never get there II
Vason - "If it meets with the approval, you know, of Council here tonight as far
as the contents thereof II
Mayor- "We11 I think we a1reBdy agreed with that - welve all had a copy of the
- 'recommended changes in the Ch~rtEr and it's just a question now of getting it up there
before the legislature and having Dick push it"
Smoak - "Bob, one question on this te1e-prompter cable TV - in their construction
program, are they gonna dig thru these resurfaced street"
Hopkins II No, they're putting all theirs on Florida Power and telephone lines -
they've got a lead in out here west of town and it will come in on poles and come
off the poles into your hosue just like the telephone wires"
Schroede1 -"Where are they gonna erect the tower"
Hopkins - lilt's out near the-on the road going into the city dump-out west of town
somewhere II
Mayor - City Attorney, any report?
Vason - "Nothing in particular - than that I feel the council members should be advised
as to our very information meeting that we had last Tuesday with the Judge and Mr.
Ford on our condemnation proceedings-I attended the hearing with the City Manager
~-~nd Mayor Smith and if we didnlt leam anything else we learned why justice is so slow-
--=.;Ie hatched quite a few war Storiisout-we did come to some agreement with Mr. F10rd and his
cli~nt, Peter Johnson, and Judge Hall signed the order Monday of This week, I was
told, although I haven't received a copy of the order as yet-we will acquire possession
of the property south of Osceola Street at 12:01 A.M. tomorrow morning or whenver
we deposit the $24,000.00 which the court declared that we should eeposit-whichever
occurs first-now we gave Mr. Johnson an additional week to get his fruit off was why
there was some delay between last Tuesday and this week-and then on the property that
Mr. Johnson owns on the north side of Osceo1a-thatls in Block 143, I think, he asked
until May 15th to remove his fruit from that property, or, if he removed the
fruit prior to that time, we can acquire possession of that portion of the property
immediate1y"
Schreede1 - "That donlt mean that $24,000.00 is gonna be the final --
Vason - "No"
Beals - "Does that indicate anything at all"
Vason - lilt indicates that the agreement that Mr. Ford and Mr. Johnson and the Mayor
and the City Manager and myself came to last Tuesday afternoon-welre not precluded
from obtaining a lower award from the jury, but b, the same token they are not precluded
from being awarded a greater amount of compensation for the property. Mr. Johnson will
take $20,000.00 out of the court I'm sure ,as soon as we put it in he's entitled to
do that"
lea1s - liTo have the use of that money"
Vason -"Yes"
Beals - "And then if the court determines that its a lesser amount, hels-"
Vason - "He's liable to us with a difference and I believe that we can charge interest
to-he takes a change when he takes it out, but he has that right under the statute"
Mayor - liDo I understand that the city is liable for all expenses of the court proceedings-
their lawyer and appraisers and jury and all II
Vason - "Yes, in this proceeding, that is correct"
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Beals
is"
Vason -
Bea1s-
can he"
"0ur appraiserls findings are a matter of record - do you know who his appraiser
liAs far as I know, they havenlt retained one yet - they say they're going to"
"We~l he can't just get any number that he wants, to and the city pay for it,
Vason - "No, the statute says, reasonable fees and costs"
Byrd - Reasonable is whatever the Judge says?"
Vason - liThe jury - the jury doesn't determine attorney fees though II
Mayor - "I hate to make this statement, but I just canlt help but believe that after
going to that meeting the other day and hearing oris Ford talk and the discussion
up there, that we might have been better off if we had just bought that property and not
gone through all this - I hope I'm wrong"
Vason - liAs an additional sideline-we may kill two birds with one stone anyway because in
this particular proceeding it appears that our ordinance is in question when the
Tompsons and Charlie Johnson and the lots came-particularly when they requested that
variance-and of course we denied that variance on the basis of the particular ordinance
that we have in our code-that ordinance-particular provision of our code is for-quite poss~~~
will come into play in this particular suit in that Mr. Johnson wants the market
value of 21 city lots and of course our contention is that because we have this
particular provision in our code- there are only 15 buildable city lots out there
and maybe that somewhere in the course of this proceeding that we will ge~'some
judicial ruling on the validity of that particular code provision"
Beals - I didn't attend the court session the other day - I do recognize that Chris
Ford is a very competent attorney, but though I know the wheels of justice are
slow-that justice will prevail and 11m confident that it will be a good deal under
the $24,000.00"
Mayor - I sincerely hope that you're right"
Hopkins - "I might make this observation - our representation in that hearing stood toe
to toe with Christopher Ford and I think weill come out al1rightll
Mayor - II I was real proud of Bob, I really was II
Vason - "I appreciate that - thank you very much"
Beals - II Yould be entitled to that $100.00 this month"
Vason - II I would like the council members to keep in mind of possible suggestions for
the city retaining an appraiser - I donlt think there is any particular push right now,
but we should start in that direction when we condemn the property"
Mayor - "We can use the one we got already, can't we"
Vason - "I wouldn't want to go with just one appraisal - I think that members of the
Council should keep in mind that we are going to need another appraisal"
Mayor - How soon do you need it, Bob?
Vason - The sooner we have it, the sooner we get started - the sooner welre gonna get
to trial"
Mayor - II Well the experience welve had in the past on getting an appraisal-sometimes
they drag their feet and take quite awhile to get an appraisal out to you-we were several
months in getting and appraisal on the city hall building-how about getting that man
from Leesburg to give us an appraisal, Mr. Howard?"
Beals - "Why donlt we kick it around and think about it"
,~opkins - "Mr. Mayor may I interject one thing -it's on the same subject but doesnlt
have anything to do with the appraisal-originally we were discussing this property-the
irrigation proposal of Rick Georges came up and was presented and I donlt recall that
the Council took any action with respect to that particular proposal to go ahead or
what-I'm just bringing it up to think about so when we acquire all that property we can
give him sufficient notice as to whether we want to proceed if in fact we do"
:-<.~. ~..:~~
Beals - "Ild like to ask Bob Vason another question - the court will ultimately
determine t~e fair market value of this property, but as of what date?"
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Vason - liAs of the date that we acquired possession, which is tomorrow or whenever
we get the money over there II
Beals -Then any sales prior to that time could be used as comparab1e"
Smoak - "A question that I have on that - on the sewer assessments on the frontage
itself-who is responsible for that"
Vason - liTo be quite frank with you Mr. Smoak, I checked into the taxes but I
completely overlooked that"
Smoak - "April 1st it was due and payable-and if we didn't acquire the property until
April 11th wou1dnlt that be a lien against that property"
Vason - :1 think it was a lien even before that date"
Smoak - "Then we have determined that it was a legal lien as of April 1st and
hels gonna be responsible for the sewer assessment regardless of what he gets for the
property"
Vason - "Wouldn't it be funny if we foreclosed on his land and took it away from
him"
Byrd - "He couldn't get clear title to it until he clears the lien Up"
Smoak - liThe point 11m making is, he has 30 days to make arrangements with the city
to pay this lien - at the first of May if he hasnlt made arrangements with the city
according to - anyway, you might look into that"
Vason llThatl;s very interesting, I will"
Schroede1 - "What does it amount to"
Hopkins - "I don't have that information, but it's a sizable amount II
Schroede1 - "Mr. Mayor can I say something? I attended a Library Board meeting yesterday
morning and they have 16,000 volumes up there now-an increase of 62 borrowers and
162 new volumes the last month -itls a growing concern-they have monthly expenditures
of between $1200 and $1300 a month and all their fines and fees and funds that
they generate from gifts all go into this to help make up the deficit and the council
should have received a letter from the library addressed to the Mayor and members
of the Counci 1 - they sti 11 want thei r $1200"
Mayor - "What do you mean they still want their $1200?
Schroede1 - "That they asked for that was cut out"
Mayor - "Well thatls not their $1200 unless the Council sees fit to give it to them"
Beals - Mr. Mayor along the same vein, I attended a Chamber of Commerce meeting the
other night and theylre not going to be any too pleased if they don't get 2/5 of a mill
this "ear"
Schroede1 - "We11 the letter is very se1f-explanatory-they have expenses that are going
up continually like everybody else and they have to pay more for help"
Smoak - "Mri Schroedel has anyone approached the idea of using the library on a
fee basis"
Schroede1 - "How do you mean?"
Smoak - "How many cards do you have out?
5chroede1 - "1600 or some odd"
Smoak - "If you would charge a dollar per year per card to city residents and an
additional one dollar to outside residents, do you think it would stop anyone from using
the 1ibrary"
Ann Dupee - "I donlt know, 11m not there when the people come in. City residents don't
pay anything - itls set up as a free public 1ibrary"
Schroede1- "We11 they asked for an increase in their budget and the city allowed the same
as the previous year"
Smoak - "We11 I don't think that charging a $1.00 per year per card would keep anyone
from using the library and this would be one way of generating some income and certainly
it's a very worthwile thing-and basically be taxing the people who use the facility
instead of taxing the populous as a who1e-I understand that there are many other things
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that are municipally owned that everyone pays for but not everyone uses"
Czech "Can an entire family use one card, Mrs. Dupee?"
Dupee - II Yes II
Beals - "There are some cases where the non-residents are getting residents to check
out their books - itls probably unfair to think though that charging for cards would
generate $1600 because it would just encourage families to have one card in the
future and this reducing the number of cards issued. I even favor additional city
participation, but not in the middle of a fiscal year - I think it should come up at
budget time - I favored it at last budget timell
Smoak - liThe only reason I bring this up is because ifEClermont was in great shape
financially I'd say 1etls go all the way with the library - all the way with
the softball people and 1etls go all the way with the DeMo1ay people and help them
with their project and all the other projects, but there are alternate uses for the
money and you know as well as I do the demands on this city right now for funds-
the only thing 11m saying is that I believe that the money that the library is asking
for can be generated within house by the people who use the library without any trouble
and I don't think it would eliminate anyone from using the library
Schroede1- liThe Library Board is asking for $1200 in revenue sharing money-thatls what
they are asking"
Smoak - "I think the Library, Board is aSk..ing for $12QO peerod."
Beals - "What about Chambers of Commerce, were they designated for top priority also
in the revenue sharing monies"
Dupee - "Many of your Chambers are independent, but the library is city owned"
Sthroede1 - II That br$inJls up another question, they want to know - the Library Board
>-<< j received a bill for ~_ 400 for the front footjge" are they expected to pay i t"
Hopkins -"We11 welve got to go back and read the Minutes of the Public Hearing and find
out what the Council at that time told them they were going to do - I have no idea -
it was picked up by the engineers for assessment because on the tax roll it is not
listed under City of Clermont. 1111 have to check it out II
Schroede1 - "Well they want to know if they can reapply for this $1200.00 - in another
3 months - if you turn them down this time, can they reapply in another 3 months/l
Hopkins - "They have reapplied and as I recall they were told a few months ago
that we would review the budget at 6 months ~ it's amost time but we havenlt reviewed
yet II
Mayor - "Payment of the bills - any questions by any member/l
Schroede1 - /II was under the impression that the Jaycee Beach pavilion was a gift to
the city"
Beals - "They were going to run that through the city treasury in order to not pay
sales tax" .
Hopkins -"They have deposited $5,000.00 with us and we are deducting their expenses"
Schroedel llHow soon will the building be ready"
Hopkins - liThe foundation is all ready, I think they're waiting on Kons1er Steel now/l
Schroedel - "I move that the bills be paid"
Beal s - II I second it"
The Ayes were unanimous and Mayor Smith declared that the motion be carried
Mayor - liThe next order of business is an Ordinance"
Vason - "This is Ordinance No. 91-C, AN ORDINANCE UNDER THE CODE OF ORDINANCES OF THE
CITY OF CLERMONT, FLORIDA, AMENDING SUB-SECTION (E) (2) OF SECTION 26-25 OF THE CODE
OF ORDINANCES OF THE CITY OF CLERMONT, FLORIDA: ESTABLISHING SIDE YARD SETBACK REQUIRE-
MENTS IN C2 GENERAL COMMERCIAL ZONING DISTRICT: REPEALING ALL ORDINANCES IN CONFLICT
HEREWITH: PROVIDING FOR SEVERABILITY: PROVIDING AN EFFECTIVE DATE: AND PROVIDING FOR
PUBLICATION BY POSTING"
Schroede1 -/11111 introduce it for first reading, Mr. Mayor"
Mayor - /lA~thing under old business?/I
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Schroede1 - "Has Mr. Beals approached the Chamber of Conmerce about a greyhound
bus depot?
Bea1s"';- "You know I met with them once since the last meeting and I forgot all about
that until after the meeting - it occurred to me shortly after that I hadnlt taken
it up with them - I will do that though- I donlt think they're gonna be too receptive
though"
Byrd - II Welve talked about the traffic situation on Highway #50 before and I'd
lik. to restate anything that the Council, collectively or individually or if they
know anybody that has any political muscle to get something done about that thing-
I'd also like for us to investigate how other cities like Winter Garden and Grove1and
get traffic lights on that thing and if we canlt do anything about widening it,
letls at least see what we can do about getting some lights up there II
Mayor - "Mr. Dupee here had a very good idea-we don't seem to get to first base
in Deland and I think it would be to our advantage to bring some pressure to bear
on our legislators in Tallahassee to get some action up there because I donlt think
you're gonna get a thing out of Mr. Benedict- we havenlt in the past
Czech - "Your honor at the time the 5th and 50 light was up, the Homeowners did
quite a bit of work with the Department of Transportation-we called their attention
to Grove1and they said that the highway goes thru the business district of Groveland-
that's why those two stop lights are there, but that 5th and 60 was not the business
district of Clermont therefore they wouldn't put a stop light up there-but of course
the city did eventually anyway
Mayor - "They gave us permission, ~ut we had to pay for it"
6zech - "Yes, you had to pay for it, but if it goes thru the business district,
theyll1 put them in"
Byrd - "We11 that thing has been scaring me for months, but I went out to the new
shopping center on Saturday and traffic is just unbe1ievab1e-I was beginning to
wonder how I was gonna get back on the other side of 50so'I could; get home II
Beals - "Ild like to do anything to exert pressure in Tallahassee or whatever-but as
futile as it has been in the past, I think we should have a delegation go back
to De1and"
Byrd ~ "How about since we've got banking interests in other cities that are located
here, have they got any political muscle somewhere
Czech - "Yes they have and theylre working on it"
Byrd - "Therels bound to be some way to get a light on that highway out there - I think
B10xam is the worst place now and East Avenue would be a close second"
Beals - "Ild like to see a place where the_children could at least walk over the
highway, but I understand that one inTavar~ cost something like $180,000 and I'm sure
the DOT would be agreeable in letting the city do something like that, but I donlt
think theylre gonna participate - I still think we ought to work on DeLand- with
all due respect-Lake County now has three freshmen members of a minorot~ party
representing them-thatls the Lake County legislative delegation and with all due
respect I don't know that they're gonna have the muscle up there to do anything"
Mayor- II Any thing under new business"
Beals _II live got one item and it pertains to traffic a1so- I don't like one-way
streets, but we do have one already in Clermont thatls Juniata between 7th and 8th
goining eastbound and would it be wise then to make Broome Street which parallels that
one-way westbound-I'm referring to Sundays, but itls impossible to go eastbound on
Broome Street, of course other than Sunday I don't know that itls necessary to
have Juniata one-way"
Hopkins - "That's primarily because of the hospital-it was for their convenience,
but it was all checked out ahead of time with the administrative board of the Methodist
Church"
Bea1s- "I have one other item, at a recent meeting of Council when we acted on an
ordinance that has been on the books for some time, but it hadnlt been rigidly enforced
and the City Manager recommended that it be enforced and that's this thing of
requiring that limbs and trash and what have yau ftrom peoples yards be cut into 4
foot lengthS and placed in plastic bags and I JUs wonder if maybe that might not
have been done a little prematurely"
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Hopkins -"We11 the only alternative in order to provide the service is to get another
truck and another two men because we just can't keep up with it and the reason for the bags
is to speed up the collection of the leaves-the reason for the 4 foot lengths-even
thought we can pick up larger bundles with the hydraulic lift with one load you
fill up a truck-youlve got branches allover the truck-we just need some assitance'
from the people to keep the cost of trash collection downu
Beals - "Peop1e tell me that the truck has just gone by their house and not
picked it Up"
Hopkins uThe reason for that is in order to catch up, welve put out some dump
trucks with one man and if they have seen him go but-it's because he was gonna have
to wait for the mechanical loader to come by-it was too much for just one man"
Beals - "Whatls the policy at the dump if somebody chose to carry there own trash
to help the city"
Hopkins -"They would have to pay to dump it"
Smythe - "I believe itls free now - 11m pretty sure it is for passenger cars and
possibly pickup trucks a1so11
Mayor - II Any thing under new business"
Smoak - "Mr. Mayor I think that the City Council between now and the election
in November should have some concrete proposals to present to the people of Clermont
as far as annexation of additional area into the city with one primary purpose and
that being an area zoned R-2 and R-3 for low cost housing-there is a crying need for it
in this area-we have none in the area-we have no area that it can be developed
real1y-I think that the only way welre gonna find the land within the city limits
to do that is to bring new land into the city limits and hopefully some of the
property owners that will be willing to go i"n that type of an area-the only houses
that are being built right now are houses that people simply cannot afford-I think
also we need to think in terms of an industrial area in additional to this lower
property that was rezoned for light industrial use-I think that we ought to have
some concrete proposals to present to the people of Clermont and the surrounding
areas on this November election coming up-with these two primary objectives in mind-
I think that itls not too early to start thinking about it-a great deal of home work
and effort needs to be done in making the proposals and lid like to see the City
Council have a town meeting regarding these two things-find out what the feelings of
the people are-let everyone who is interested come down and say this is what I
think or isn't what I think-Clermont is sitting in the middle of it-Bob knows about
things that are going on-I know about some things that are in the making that he
probably doesnlt know about-but we're gonna pretty qUlick'~un out of land to build
anything on-so I think it's not too early to make some serious indepth studies
of how we want to go-where we want to go and when we want to do it and I think the
whole populous of Clermont ought to be invited to participate in it"
Beals - "I think also at the same time that Minneo1a should be approached and see if
they wou1dn't"
Smoak - "I'd like to see something on the ba1~ot in both towns if nothing else but
get a feeling of the temperament of the people"
Mayor - "Ilm in accord with your idea Mr. Smoak, the only thing that comes to my mind
is the available ground to be annexed for R-3 property-where would we go"
Smoak - "I think welve got to find it and the only way we can do it is to sit down and
look at a map"
The meeting was adjourned by Mayor Smith.
~tLff..{ k~~
ores . Carro , , t C1 erk
Don E. Smi th